My intro message. BMW i3S is brilliant, but needs big range Solid State battery

[GerryMD2024]

For my 2019 i3S 120 AH, I hope to get heat pump working again.
By 2027 hope to get solid state battery replacement to give 960 Kms or 600 miles range. I hope two German companies I am talking with make this possible soon.

 

[mojo]

Sadly, I don't see this happening. The problem is a very basic one: the speed at which cars depreciate in value.

When you consider what a 2019 i3 is likely to be worth in 2027, you will see the problem. It will be a £5k car, and nobody in their right mind is going to want to spend £10k for a new battery on a £5k car. So, unfortunately, the market for this type of battery replacement is too small for manufacturers to find the development cost worthwhile.

To me, the interesting area will be when reputable companies can rebuilt a complete 120Ah battery pack to "as new" spec for £2k and warrant it for 2 years. That is likely to generate the volume that they would need to set the operation up.

All IMHO, of course!

 

[GerryMD2024]

Sadly, I don't see this happening. The problem is a very basic one: the speed at which cars depreciate in value.

When you consider what a 2019 i3 is likely to be worth in 2027, you will see the problem. It will be a £5k car, and nobody in their right mind is going to want to spend £10k for a new battery on a £5k car. So, unfortunately, the market for this type of battery replacement is too small for manufacturers to find the development cost worthwhile.

To me, the interesting area will be when reputable companies can rebuilt a complete 120Ah battery pack to "as new" spec for £2k and warrant it for 2 years. That is likely to generate the volume that they would need to set the operation up.

All IMHO, of course!

1. The German firm Lion Smart already built improved battery specifically to replace our BMW i3S 120 AH battery. Thir website confirms they bought battery manufacturing tools & licence from BMW. Lion Smart Gmbh opened a new factory Aug 2023.
2. I am in correspondence with a different German firm, who have patented a new Lithium Solid State battery than does not have the manufacturing issues other battery manufacturers have.
They offer 960 Kms range (600 miles). Tests already confirm no range deterioration after tens of thousands of recharges.

3. The above two German firms are in contact now. I hope Lion Smart are 'smart enough' to use this new design.

I for one would be happy to pay Euro 15,000 in 2027 to have my 2019 battery replaced (would be 8-years old then), to get an i3S with 960 Kms range (600 miles),and no loss of range for 20 years on this patented SS-Li metal battery design.

In Europe we have to pay more than Euro 50,000 ( USD $ 54,000 ) for EV with 65 kWh Li-ion battery offering motorway range of 400 Kms ( 250 miles).
Imagine buying second hand BMW i3S in 2027 & getting this upgrade. Makes a ton of economic sense. The BMW i3S carbon fiber frame & plastic body panels will not rust nor deteriorate

 

[mojo]

No problem - my opinion or yours could be valid. Perhaps we can return to this thread in 2027 and you will be able to show that I was wrong!

I should add that I will be very happy if you are right, though I have no need for a car with a 600 mile range. If they are selling batteries that provide a 600 mile range, hopefully they will also be able to sell me a new 120Ah battery nice and cheap (but I doubt it).

 

[JimBmwi3s]

If a car is worth $3k to $5k in 2027, if he likes the car and it’s fun for him, he still has in his wants a great functional car so good for him if he’s happy improving the engineering. There may be an option for the i3 to hover and fly by 2030.

 

[clasqm]

I've been following Lion Smart for six years. They are not interested in selling one battery pack at a time to retail customers. They sell them to other companies, who put them into trucks and buses. Sorry to burst your bubble.

And we've been hearing about these magical solid-state batteries for a decade now, mostly from Toyota. I'll believe it when I see one on the road.

 

[Berlindriver]

Lion smart is a strange company. I wrote them an email a few times. Never ever got even a reply. They're apparently not that interested in the ev community. I don't know how, but they're connected to BMW. Probably they're not allowed to give customer support to BMW I3 owners.

 

[Berlindriver]

If a car is worth $3k to $5k in 2027, if he likes the car and it’s fun for him, he still has in his wants a great functional car so good for him if he’s happy improving the engineering. There may be an option for the i3 to hover and fly by 2030.

You're missing the point. The car has a rather big depreciation due to older battery tech. If that can be updated, (charging speed and capacity) the value will be fine. The car has a a bright future due to the building quality and materials used.

 

[mojo]

You're missing the point. The car has a rather big depreciation due to older battery tech.

You can look at this multiple different ways, but the ~primary~ reason for the depreciation is that it's an old car - nothing to do with the tech.

Of course, it simplifies too much to say this but: the thing that drives car sales is people wanting a shiny new status symbol.

For an eight year old car, having a bigger battery in it won't do much for its value.

There will be a few people like me who will want to keep their car running as long as possible, but they are not so likely to want to pay £15k to end up with the same old car, with tired suspension, worn bushes, worn motor bearings, a few scratches here and there (but yes, with a new bigger battery).

 

[ronbot]

Although BMW upgraded the drive motor bearings in 2018, the root problem remains... they are sealed bearings that are too small, and have no lube recirculation for filtering or cooling... resulting in a rather limited lifetime. I had to replace my 2015 drive motor at 95k miles. The problem began at around 70k... my BMW dealership said "that's normal for the i3". They succeeded in putting me off until my CPO warranty ended.

After failure, BMW-NA denied me any Goodwill assistance because "it has too many miles"... which almost sounds like the rest of the car is too near its life expectancy. (note that they DID provide new drive motors for free to others who were having this exact same failure, but theirs were 75k miles and under, but same age)

All this to say... do not expect the i3 to last long enough to warrant a new-tech battery pack... unless you have an ample supply of money to keep pouring into it. A motor replacement is over $7500usd, and if the bearing wear gets bad, it also damages the transmission... another $3k+. (no repairing of either is allowed by BMW, only replacement)

 

[flyinglizards]

1. The German firm Lion Smart already built improved battery specifically to replace our BMW i3S 120 AH battery. Thir website confirms they bought battery manufacturing tools & licence from BMW. Lion Smart Gmbh opened a new factory Aug 2023.
2. I am in correspondence with a different German firm, who have patented a new Lithium Solid State battery than does not have the manufacturing issues other battery manufacturers have.
They offer 960 Kms range (600 miles). Tests already confirm no range deterioration after tens of thousands of recharges.

3. The above two German firms are in contact now. I hope Lion Smart are 'smart enough' to use this new design.

I for one would be happy to pay Euro 15,000 in 2027 to have my 2019 battery replaced (would be 8-years old then), to get an i3S with 960 Kms range (600 miles),and no loss of range for 20 years on this patented SS-Li metal battery design.

In Europe we have to pay more than Euro 50,000 ( USD $ 54,000 ) for EV with 65 kWh Li-ion battery offering motorway range of 400 Kms ( 250 miles).
Imagine buying second hand BMW i3S in 2027 & getting this upgrade. Makes a ton of economic sense. The BMW i3S carbon fiber frame & plastic body panels will not rust nor deteriorate

There are more than a couple solid state battery startups making all kinds of promises and quoting all kinds of patents.

 

[Clanduncan]

I contacted Lion Smart once years ago when that test i3 made headlines. They were quite clear that their tech would not be made commercially available to i3 car owners, and that their test i3 car was a 'proof of concept' demonstrator. They were (at that time) aiming solely at public vehicles, buses/vans etc, especially in the North American and Canadian market.

 

[GerryMD2024]

many thanks for the advice that for a 8-to-10 year old i3S, I might need to replace the motor etc. The car bodywork is perfect & shiny-as-new after 4-years. It will be disappointing to accept ALL cars need to be replaced with new ones minimum every ten years.
I need 1,000 European Owners of i3S 120AH cars to form a buyers group:
My dream is to get 1,000 (one thousand) owners of (2019 to 2021 models) to form a buyers group & place a purchase order for Euro 15 million with a European designed & produced Solid State Lithium metal battery batteries.
I found High Performance Battery [ High Performance Battery ] who have a patented design to safely & efficiently manufacture Solid State Lithium metal batteries. They have licensed a Swiss battery manufacturer to produce these.
If we get 1,000 orders together, then we source local firms in a number of EU countries to replace our existing Li-ion batteries with Lithium metal batteries. and those older batteries can be re-cycled by one company to extract the Lithium & other elements & supply that Lithium to the Swiss battery manufacturer. ( we would need to pay separately for retro-fit service, where they retain our older batteries and sell to the re-cycle company)

I hope to hear back from like minded Europeans (step 1) & if this works, someone in Americas could form own buyer group. Together we could have over $ 30 million buying power.
I especially welcome contact from those who would form an 20-to-50 person "engineering & financing & legal" advisory group to launch the project to benefit the 1,000 first-adopters buying group

 

[GerryMD2024]

It seems most posts on this forum are USA owners of REX models.
A quick question:
are there many owners of (2019 to 2021 version) i3S 120 AH ?
are there any Europeans on this forum who wish for 960 Km range ?
are there any EU specific forums ?
Thanks

 

[mojo]

Apologies if my earlier replies came across as argumentative - this is purely difference of opinion, and not an attempt by me to say that you are wrong! I would be happy to see all cars with a minimum lifetime (barring crashes or other disasters) of 20 years, and it would be great if the manufacturers were required to supply replacement parts for that long, so that we could all get the parts needed to make that happen.

To answer your quick question:

I'm a European owner of an i3s 120Ah within the date range you specify.​

I would be attracted by a bigger range - at an appropriate price.​

If you want local forums, look to the FaceBook groups. There are many, though of course Facebook is not ideal for your type of discussion (because the discussion gets pushed down out of view too easily).​

Sorry to return to the negative but... something like this (the ordering of 1000 battery packs with a nominal value of 15 million Euros) can't satisfactorily be managed by a "buyer's group". There are just too many things to go wrong, and the sums of money are so high that things will definitely go wrong.

If you think it can be done, form a company to do it as a commercial venture, and get venture capital to get it off the ground. That way everyone gets the legal protection, and the public liability insurance, and the regulatory permissions, and the properly integrated design (so that a battery that is outside of BMW's factory spec can be made to operate correctly in the car, and continues to do so for more than just a few days), and the customer support processes, and the fault returns procedures, etc etc. And the people who take the risks get paid.

In my experience, a project like this can't be done well by a bunch of amateurs. At best it will fold, and everyone will wander away, happy but unfulfilled. At worst people will pay money up front (maybe only a relatively small amount) and that money will disappear.

 

[GerryMD2024]

Apologies if my earlier replies came across as argumentative - this is purely difference of opinion, and not an attempt by me to say that you are wrong! I would be happy to see all cars with a minimum lifetime (barring crashes or other disasters) of 20 years, and it would be great if the manufacturers were required to supply replacement parts for that long, so that we could all get the parts needed to make that happen.

To answer your quick question:

I'm a European owner of an i3s 120Ah within the date range you specify.​

I would be attracted by a bigger range - at an appropriate price.​

If you want local forums, look to the FaceBook groups. There are many, though of course Facebook is not ideal for your type of discussion (because the discussion gets pushed down out of view too easily).​

Sorry to return to the negative but... something like this (the ordering of 1000 battery packs with a nominal value of 15 million Euros) can't satisfactorily be managed by a "buyer's group". There are just too many things to go wrong, and the sums of money are so high that things will definitely go wrong.

If you think it can be done, form a company to do it as a commercial venture, and get venture capital to get it off the ground. That way everyone gets the legal protection, and the public liability insurance, and the regulatory permissions, and the properly integrated design (so that a battery that is outside of BMW's factory spec can be made to operate correctly in the car, and continues to do so for more than just a few days), and the customer support processes, and the fault returns procedures, etc etc. And the people who take the risks get paid.

In my experience, a project like this can't be done well by a bunch of amateurs. At best it will fold, and everyone will wander away, happy but unfulfilled. At worst people will pay money up front (maybe only a relatively small amount) and that money will disappear.

Hi Mojo
I really appreciate the detailed & honest notes.
I agree that a limited liability insured company must be involved at the order & delivery stage of such a project. Any else would look like a scam to take € deposits off punters.
I will not be setting up such a business.
Only possible way this would work, would be to approach an existing European battery manufacturer to advise we have 1,000 or more i3S car owners, who indicated their strong interest in pre-ordering the long range battery.
and let that battery company consider a € 15 million business order.
(to put his amount in context, Lion Smart website explains they borrowed € 10 million from Swiss bank to build their new robot-automated battery factory in Germany. Factory went live summer 2023).
since the number of responses are so few, unless a significant number advise otherwise, I will soon drop this project

GMD

 

[mojo]

Out of curiosity, do you have a "proof of concept" that a 600-mile range battery can be fitted into an i3 and be made to work, both functionally and reliably?

I don't have any technical insight into the bottlenecks and limitations of the factory BMS and associated charging system, but I'm sure there must be some somewhere. Do we have certainty that a 600-mile range battery can be installed without completely ripping out the BMS and starting again with a new, non-factory one? Do we know whether the instrument cluster can cope with calculating the range of a car with the battery installed? Do we know that all of the cabling can handle the extra loads without failure?

Perhaps all of those things are already resolved, and I'm worrying unnecessarily about the details.

 

[alohart]

1. The German firm Lion Smart already built improved battery specifically to replace our BMW i3S 120 AH battery.

Why limit this to only the 120 Ah i3S? All i3 battery packs share an almost identical design. The original i3 could have its 60 Ah battery pack replaced by any battery pack that would fit in a 120 Ah i3S. Also, an i3S has the same battery pack as an i3 of the same model year. So your market for an upgraded battery pack would be far larger than owners of 120 Ah i3S's.

 

[Suttyo]

HELP !! the engine bearing needs to be replaced urgently, but it is difficult because of the rotation sensor. RONBOT, if I saw correctly, you were also looking for the solution, did you succeed? [email protected] Hungary

 

[JimBmwi3s]

Maybe there is a towing cart mechanism that holds an additional 600 mile state of art battery that connects to the charging port