My intro message. BMW i3S is brilliant, but needs big range Solid State battery

[GerryMD2024]

It's precisely because the i3/i3s doesn't have all of the latest tech gadgets that the possibility of having a battery replacement that brings improved tech and a significant increase in range really excites me. There's a beautiful and functional minimalism in the interior design of the i3 that sets it apart from every other car on the road today. Improving its range without changing its fundamental character would be a huge win.

You might argue that the Tesla model 3 and model Y have a minimal interior design, but it's minimal to a fault - it's motivated more by saving money than it is about any carefully considered design ethos to create a focused, refined driving experience. I really can't stand the trend in new vehicles to do away with all physical controls in favor of gimmicky touch screens, capacitive touch controls, and "driving experience" lighting and sound profiles. Just shut up and give me a knob or a button that allows me to develop muscle memory and quickly make climate adjustments instead of forcing me to take my eyes off the road to poke some arbitrarily rendered target icon on a UI nightmare of a touch screen interface. Sadly, BMW is as guilty of this as any other manufacturer at this point. I guess knobs and buttons just aren't cool enough for the tech-obsessed, screen-addicted zombies buying cars these days...

I also despise Tesla's "just put everything in a giant, centrally mounted touch screen" school of interior design and vehicle systems control. The latest iteration of the model 3 even does away with steering column stalks in favor of buttons on the steering wheel. Go ahead and call me an old fart, but I want important driving information to be conveyed to me quickly and efficiently, and I want to see that information directly ahead of me and above the steering wheel, whether on a HUD or a small screen. Some people (especially tech enthusiasts or young YouTube automotive "reviewers") ***** about the small instrument LCD panel in the i3, but I think it's perfect. I don’t need to see a freaking video game on a giant 24K resolution screen in ten million garish colors when I just want to check my my speed and range. To me, the driving dynamics and handling characteristics of a car is the primary source of entertainment, not some gimmicky, overly complicated infotainment system that takes my eyes off the road and is obsolete the minute it rolls off of the factory floor.

/rant

Hi BornElectric2018. I fully agree. I love the screen sizes & screen usability & stick options & control buttons. and the Bluetooth system works perfectly when I make or receive standard calls, and Skype calls & WhatsApp calls (including the Wheel control to accept & set up calls).
How do we get Lion Smart to work wit us ?
[A] we get EU to tell them they must.
Commercially we need to offer Lion Smart a Euro 15 million order ( € 5 m per year 2027, 2028 & 2028 )

[A] Target EU laws
Which country do you live in ? If in EU, can you ask people you know, who own I3 cars to consider my suggestion below that we all contact the EU commissioner in our own country & own EU Parliament member representative ?

We can hope that EU laws force BMW to allow Lion Smart to provide long range batteries for us. I.e. to make it illegal for BMW to 'not allow' Lion Smart supply us with new longer range batteries.
( if it is true, as a previous member wrote, that either BMW's battery technology transfer deal with Lion Smart prevents Lion Smart from upgrading our I3 cars, or that Lion Smart will only supply truck batteries & electricity storage)
then both BMW & Lion Smart should be reported by all Eu citizens who own I3 cars, that they need to plan now to meet new EU targets. See below announcement:

already EU Press release on 10th July 2023
https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/...-regulation-on-batteries-and-waste-batteries/

The regulation of the European Parliament and the Council will apply to all batteries including all waste portable batteries, electric vehicle batteries, industrial batteries, starting, lighting and ignition (SLI) batteries (used mostly for vehicles and machinery) and batteries for light means of transport (e.g. electric bikes, e-mopeds, e-scooters).

Circular economy​

The new rules aim to promote a circular economy by regulating batteries throughout their life cycle. The regulation therefore establishes end-of-life requirements, including collection targets and obligations, targets for the recovery of materials and extended producer responsibility.
The regulation sets targets for producers to collect waste portable batteries (63% by the end of 2027 and 73% by the end of 2030), and introduces a dedicated collection objective for waste batteries for light means of transport (51% by the end of 2028 and 61% by the end of 2031).
The regulation sets a target for lithium recovery from waste batteries of 50% by the end of 2027 and 80% by the end of 2031, which can be amended through delegated acts depending on market and technological developments and the availability of lithium.
The regulation provides for mandatory minimum levels of recycled content for industrial, SLI batteries and EV batteries. These are initially set at 16% for cobalt, 85% for lead, 6% for lithium and 6% for nickel. Batteries will have to hold a recycled content documentation.

 

[Arm]

Sadly, I don't see this happening. The problem is a very basic one: the speed at which cars depreciate in value.

When you consider what a 2019 i3 is likely to be worth in 2027, you will see the problem. It will be a £5k car, and nobody in their right mind is going to want to spend £10k for a new battery on a £5k car. So, unfortunately, the market for this type of battery replacement is too small for manufacturers to find the development cost worthwhile.

To me, the interesting area will be when reputable companies can rebuilt a complete 120Ah battery pack to "as new" spec for £2k and warrant it for 2 years. That is likely to generate the volume that they would need to set the operation up.

All IMHO, of course!

People spend loads of money updating or repairing cars that are worth repairing or updating. The i3s is...in my opinion...one of those cars. I, for one, would love to keep my i3s and update it if that opportunity arises. It's still cheaper than buying a new EV outright and would make this car a rocket if a light, solid state replacement were available.

 

[mojo]

People spend loads of money updating or repairing cars that are worth repairing or updating.

Agreed - I'm one of those people.

But if you want an idea of whether it's likely that a solid-state battery manufacturer is going to start making retrofit battery upgrades for any existing car, simply look into the past. We've now had near enough two decades of volume EV production, and how many retrofit batteries are being offered for any of the existing or past models?

The big battery manufacturers are not interested in that sort of business, and I don't see that changing - much as I would really really like to be wrong...

 

[Arm]

Agreed - I'm one of those people.

But if you want an idea of whether it's likely that a solid-state battery manufacturer is going to start making retrofit battery upgrades for any existing car, simply look into the past. We've now had near enough two decades of volume EV production, and how many retrofit batteries are being offered for any of the existing or past models?

The big battery manufacturers are not interested in that sort of business, and I don't see that changing - much as I would really really like to be wrong...

There EV market is actually too new for replacement battery solutions yet. Mostly because current batteries don't fail much and last a lot longer than anticipated.

The market for such solutions will come and be more mainstream in the future but for now, more innovative and smaller companies will lead the way until larger companies become involved.

Look at the cell phone repair industry... it's HUGE. But that wasn't the case for some years

 

[mojo]

I agree that battery repair businesses will eventually thrive - that's inevitable. But big companies who know that they can maximise their profits by just shipping truck loads of batteries to a car manufacturer with no significant ongoing cost? And will any company that has just perfected solid state batteries be interested in retro-fiting them to older cars? I have my doubts, but time will tell.

The cell/mobile phone industry is an odd one. At present there is little appetite for battery replacements because most people are conditioned to want a new phone every year or two. Regulation (in Europe, at least) seems set to change that completely, if rules to make batteries user-changeable come to pass...

 

[Allenpien]

I believe that the high voltage batteries are modular. As years go by I believe there will be more shops like the Electrified Garage in Massachusetts.( Rich Rebuilds). They will be doing aftermarket battery recycling. They posted a video wherein they did a repair that Tesla was going to charge the owner $20,000 for for less that $1,000.00. They also post some really dumb videos.

 

[GerryMD2024]

People spend loads of money updating or repairing cars that are worth repairing or updating. The i3s is...in my opinion...one of those cars. I, for one, would love to keep my i3s and update it if that opportunity arises. It's still cheaper than buying a new EV outright and would make this car a rocket if a light, solid state replacement were available.

Regarding the question "Why spend 15,000 $ or € on a 2027 or 2028 I3 car which is worth only $ 5-k to 1$ 15-k in 2027 ? " My reply: ( as soon as Lion Smart or other firm make long range EV batteries available that fit the I3 cars ) that we put together both a US and an EU buyer group, and we offer a USA retrofit company & an EU retrofit company each a $ 15-m or € 15-m contract stretching from 2027 to 2030. Then I think it will make brilliant commercial sense for non-I3 car owners to rush out in 2027, 2028 & buy such bargain I3 cars. The low second hand price plus new battery swap price will provide savvy people with a magnificent car with a great driving range, compared to the expensive flashy light cars they are now selling.

 

[ing007]

Hi Cleveland. Please feel free to email direct to Matthew Z.: [email protected] ( Matthew can collect names, emails & tel nos for USA. I will gather names in Europe )

2014(2013) REx here. Romania, Europe.
Also interested. Tnx.

 

[Thomasi3]

I think let’s gang together and ship 3 I3 in a 40 ft container to Europe it’s about 1000$ each and get a 500 mil range battery in our I3 enjoy a trip of a lifetime in Europe and then ship it back to the US for 1000 each. To do a 3 weeks car rental it would cost us a lot more then the 2000$ shipping for each and the gas savings on top .

 

[alohart]

I think let’s gang together and ship 3 I3 in a 40 ft container to Europe it’s about 1000$ each and get a 500 mil range battery in our I3 enjoy a trip of a lifetime in Europe and then ship it back to the US for 1000 each. To do a 3 weeks car rental it would cost us a lot more then the 2000$ shipping for each and the gas savings on top .

You'd need to buy a fairly expensive adapter to allow your CCS1 i3's to charge on Europe's CCS2 charging stations.

 

[Skye2002]

Couldn't agree more with your sentiments. Coincidentally, an email lobbed in my inbox this morning that Hyundai and Genesis are bringing buttons back due to customer feedback. Almost fell over backwards with surprise that a car company accepts it made a mistake... An interesting article, with the link below (probably need to copy and paste into your browser. I have another couple of personal reasons why I'd never buy a Tesla, which I won't go into here.

https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-ne...rce=cg&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=theguide

 

[Skye2002]

It's precisely because the i3/i3s doesn't have all of the latest tech gadgets that the possibility of having a battery replacement that brings improved tech and a significant increase in range really excites me. There's a beautiful and functional minimalism in the interior design of the i3 that sets it apart from every other car on the road today. Improving its range without changing its fundamental character would be a huge win.

You might argue that the Tesla model 3 and model Y have a minimal interior design, but it's minimal to a fault - it's motivated more by saving money than it is about any carefully considered design ethos to create a focused, refined driving experience. I really can't stand the trend in new vehicles to do away with all physical controls in favor of gimmicky touch screens, capacitive touch controls, and "driving experience" lighting and sound profiles. Just shut up and give me a knob or a button that allows me to develop muscle memory and quickly make climate adjustments instead of forcing me to take my eyes off the road to poke some arbitrarily rendered target icon on a UI nightmare of a touch screen interface. Sadly, BMW is as guilty of this as any other manufacturer at this point. I guess knobs and buttons just aren't cool enough for the tech-obsessed, screen-addicted zombies buying cars these days...

I also despise Tesla's "just put everything in a giant, centrally mounted touch screen" school of interior design and vehicle systems control. The latest iteration of the model 3 even does away with steering column stalks in favor of buttons on the steering wheel. Go ahead and call me an old fart, but I want important driving information to be conveyed to me quickly and efficiently, and I want to see that information directly ahead of me and above the steering wheel, whether on a HUD or a small screen. Some people (especially tech enthusiasts or young YouTube automotive "reviewers") ***** about the small instrument LCD panel in the i3, but I think it's perfect. I don’t need to see a freaking video game on a giant 24K resolution screen in ten million garish colors when I just want to check my my speed and range. To me, the driving dynamics and handling characteristics of a car is the primary source of entertainment, not some gimmicky, overly complicated infotainment system that takes my eyes off the road and is obsolete the minute it rolls off of the factory floor.

/rant

Please see my comment made today, which I should have made here, but is down towards the end of this thread.

 

[Skye2002]

Hey understandably Grumpy (with all due respect!)

Here's something that will cheer you up no end, and me too. Wheels is a car magazine specific to Australia that I have subscribed to for longer than I care to remember. They do scour the world for stories. There was a paragraph that caught my eye in their latest edition... Teslas et al may soon be banned (reading between the lines) in Europe, or at the very least not able to achieve get 5* Euro NCAP rating... perhaps an impending death notice. Why? No buttons or stalks for essential functions... like indicator stalks, windscreen wipers, SOS equipment, hazard lights, horn... all buried in the menus or submenus in the centrally placed screen. All safety issues. Even regulators sometimes get it right . Other manufacturers should be taking note...

You were not ranting. I too, am pretty riled up about what is being foisted on us. No, I don't want to return to the bad days of practically no safety in cars, but enough is enough. Just don't get me started on autonomous cars... , or flying cars like in "The Jetsons".

 

[tob1as]

I am also hoping for a cottage industry to start looking at the i3 more closely (like there is for the Toyota Prius and the Nissan Leaf). Not sure if it will ever make it to the US (because of limited sales numbers here), but it reminded me of this proof of concept from 6 or 7 years ago: https://lionsmart.com/en/lion-light-battery-en/
100 kWh in an i3. Can you imagine ?

 

[Chrism88]

So, just saw this thread. I do work in EV charging, specifically V2G and related stuff. Just a few thoughts.

Personally, I think the i3 could use a larger battery but also a better cooled motor. It’s a little down on power as is and the cooling is an issue if you’re driving quickly (for instance the i3 cannot hold 90+ mph for more than a few minutes).

With respect to the battery and a group buy. It’s not a very realistic request without working with a battery integrator. LION is a cell vendor and isn’t going to package anything for the i3. Forget about it. The only reason we’re even talking about them is because they built a demo car out of an i3. Similarly, forget about solid state. There is no reason to take the most bleeding edge technology which isn’t even functional at scale in normal cars yet and try and put it in an i3.

The best bet is to use low cost common LFP/NMC cells (you can find them even on anliexpress) and work with an aftermarket integrator who is interested in this car. It might happen in the future naturally anyway when those types of companies pop up more. Right now it would require a hands on team, with technical and battery expertise focused on THIS car, to do it. It can’t just be a random company with no interest in the i3 since the coding and integration would be significant.

A way to do this, which could be explored, would be to create an add on battery that fits where the REX is. I think that may be an easier drop in replacement of the REX that doesn’t require the swap of the whole battery. Otherwise sure a full battery swap could work too, but may increase cost or be challenging. Not sure which approach is better, but worth considering both.

 

[alohart]

Not sure if it will ever make it to the US (because of limited sales numbers here), but it reminded me of this proof of concept from 6 or 7 years ago: https://lionsmart.com/en/lion-light-battery-en/
100 kWh in an i3. Can you imagine ?

I can imagine the huge increase in vehicle weight which would require suspension modifications and probably higher load capacity tires I would rather install much higher energy density cells with no more than 50 kWh capacity that would result in a decrease in vehicle weight. But then I live on an isolated island on which I couldn't drive more than ~120 miles round-trip, so the range of our 42.2 kWh battery pack is more than enough. Those who would like to road-trip their i3's might not be too concerned about the additional vehicle weight of a large-capacity battery pack although the 50 kW DC fast charging maximum power would really hamper long-distance travel.

 

[tob1as]

So, just saw this thread. I do work in EV charging, specifically V2G and related stuff. Just a few thoughts.

Personally, I think the i3 could use a larger battery but also a better cooled motor. It’s a little down on power as is and the cooling is an issue if you’re driving quickly (for instance the i3 cannot hold 90+ mph for more than a few minutes).

With respect to the battery and a group buy. It’s not a very realistic request without working with a battery integrator. LION is a cell vendor and isn’t going to package anything for the i3. Forget about it. The only reason we’re even talking about them is because they built a demo car out of an i3. Similarly, forget about solid state. There is no reason to take the most bleeding edge technology which isn’t even functional at scale in normal cars yet and try and put it in an i3.

The best bet is to use low cost common LFP/NMC cells (you can find them even on anliexpress) and work with an aftermarket integrator who is interested in this car. It might happen in the future naturally anyway when those types of companies pop up more. Right now it would require a hands on team, with technical and battery expertise focused on THIS car, to do it. It can’t just be a random company with no interest in the i3 since the coding and integration would be significant.

A way to do this, which could be explored, would be to create an add on battery that fits where the REX is. I think that may be an easier drop in replacement of the REX that doesn’t require the swap of the whole battery. Otherwise sure a full battery swap could work too, but may increase cost or be challenging. Not sure which approach is better, but worth considering both.

Cool, thanks for sharing your knowledge. That all makes sense. Prolonged speeds of 90mph won’t be needed in the US. Highest speed allowed in my state is 75mph, even speeding a bit won’t require prolonged 90mph
I am happy with the current range of the car (94ah version), but as it gets older and the range slowly reduces, it would sure be nice to ultimately look at a higher power density replacement options. That’s still years away, but nice to think about

 

[tob1as]

I can imagine the huge increase in vehicle weight which would require suspension modifications and probably higher load capacity tires I would rather install much higher energy density cells with no more than 50 kWh capacity that would result in a decrease in vehicle weight. But then I live on an isolated island on which I couldn't drive more than ~120 miles round-trip, so the range of our 42.2 kWh battery pack is more than enough. Those who would like to road-trip their i3's might not be too concerned about the additional vehicle weight of a large-capacity battery pack although the 50 kW DC fast charging maximum power would really hamper long-distance travel.

I am with you (mostly), but I own the mid-range battery version and ultimately it will be nice to swap a higher power density module. BMW upgraded the capacity twice over the 10 years the car was sold, and I had hoped for one more refresh. Certainly, the idea won’t be to “roadtrip” (even though people have done it), but to go 200-250 miles without worry would be nice on occasion. As is, I am roughly limited to 100 miles, and then need to charge. Also: there are examples of the 60ah battery having been upgraded to the 94ah one for the first generation ones. Weight didn’t increase significantly. Software and coding were the biggest challenges and I don’t know whether that can ever be reverse engineered; I certainly don’t expect BMW to ever open source it. Even with what sounds like a simple upgrade from 60 to 94ah there were complications with getting the car to “understand and accept” the larger module.

 

[Chrism88]

Cool, thanks for sharing your knowledge. That all makes sense. Prolonged speeds of 90mph won’t be needed in the US. Highest speed allowed in my state is 75mph, even speeding a bit won’t require prolonged 90mph
I am happy with the current range of the car (94ah version), but as it gets older and the range slowly reduces, it would sure be nice to ultimately look at a higher power density replacement options. That’s still years away, but nice to think about

I live in the US too but hit the thermal limit going 70-75mph up into the mountains at times. Which is a bummer because I ski a lot

 

[tob1as]

I live in the US too but hit the thermal limit going 70-75mph up into the mountains at times. Which is a bummer because I ski a lot

Wow, I’ve never managed that. You must have a good tire budget