Air conditioning failed

[vreihen]

PARTS:
25127 AC Compressor noisy verify noise from rear of vehicle with AC on. Inspect and found compressor noisy. recover AC system and disable high voltage system replace compressorrecharge and check noise no longer present

They most certainly did remove all of the refrigerant as part of the repair process!

Now for the stupid question du jour, since BMW is new to me. Are all of the current/recent BMW cars using the same refrigerant, or did they make a switch recently? Just wondering if the dealership may have recovered the refrigerant into the wrong storage tank, and then put contaminated/mixed stuff back in?????

 

[i3Houston]

PARTS:
25127 AC Compressor noisy verify noise from rear of vehicle with AC on. Inspect and found compressor noisy. recover AC system and disable high voltage system replace compressorrecharge and check noise no longer present

They most certainly did remove all of the refrigerant as part of the repair process!

The invoice says both, on top it reads refrigerant was not discharged then down below it says it was 'recharged'. My car is nearing end of warranty and i think i will end in same situation as OP.

 

[Anonymous]

I know nothing about a/c systems. Is there a filter on the i3's a/c system just prior to the compressor that can remove contaminants like metal? If not, is there such a thing that can be fitted if/when a new system is installed?

No, there is no filter I am aware of in the i3 AC system.

Yes there is such a thing that can be fitted.

https://www.airsept.com/Products/Details/32

 

[Anonymous]

My car is nearing end of warranty and i think i will end in same situation as OP.

I think I'd be calling BMW NA, and point out the similarities with other AC systems which have subsequently had the AC compressor fail catastrophically, and require complete replacement of the entire system at a cost beyond the value of the car, and ask that either the AC compressor be replaced under warranty, or they guarantee their very limited 'band-aid repair' of the AC system for at least 12 months.

 

[i3Houston]

My car is nearing end of warranty and i think i will end in same situation as OP.

I think I'd be calling BMW NA, and point out the similarities with other AC systems which have subsequently had the AC compressor fail catastrophically, and require complete replacement of the entire system at a cost beyond the value of the car, and ask that either the AC compressor be replaced under warranty, or they guarantee their very limited 'band-aid repair' of the AC system for at least 12 months.

I spoke with BMW service agent and he was really helpful. He had his own technicians call the dealership, dealership confirmed that there were no metal shavings found in the AC lines. Also said that Dealership discharged and recharged refrigerant and service notes are misleading(Because it literally says otherwise). Anyway, he assured that if something else breaks due to this repair, they will cover it as they have the notes! Happy Ending!

 

[Anonymous]

he assured that if something else breaks due to this repair, they will cover it as they have the notes! Happy Ending!

 

[ronbot]

Any updates?

All this is new to me... and making me glad I got my 2015 BEV Tera as CPO, and was able to get them to swing an additional year... so I'm covered for 6 years unlimited miles.

Was this AC issue just on the early ones... has is been found in the 2015 models?

Metal contamination from a compressor can easily plug the very small orifices throughout the car-wide system... no amount of flushing will ever get it all, and if an orifice is already plugged, you won't get any cleaning agent to flow through it in order to flush it out.

The battery pack housing would need to be replaced (but not the battery modules), along with all of the refrigerant lines, evap and condensation coils, valves, etc.

It almost makes it a candidate for swapping in a Tesla Model 3 rear drive unit..... and rebuild the i3 battery pack with Tesla modules since they just use liquid coolant. (or Kia Soul EV batteries, which are air-cooled)

 

[i3Houston]

Cpo warranty comes with its own fine prints...!

So far there are no problems since they changed compressor.

 

[Monteverdi]

I am just reading your posting. I am an owner of a 2015 i3 BEV and we had just the same problem with a disintegrated AC compressor. Since it was still under warranty, the dealer replaced it at no cost. It took about 3 weeks to get the car back. The AC was working after that but then stopped for a few days until magically working again. Since my warranty is running out this month, we have another appointment at the dealer this week to check it again.
It is interesting to read that we are not the only ones having this problem.

 

[i3Houston]

I am just reading your posting. I am an owner of a 2015 i3 BEV and we had just the same problem with a disintegrated AC compressor. Since it was still under warranty, the dealer replaced it at no cost. It took about 3 weeks to get the car back. The AC was working after that but then stopped for a few days until magically working again. Since my warranty is running out this month, we have another appointment at the dealer this week to check it again.
It is interesting to read that we are not the only ones having this problem.

Here in Houston it was replaced in 3 days luckily. They must have had parts in stock.

Good luck with final diagnosis, I am interested to hear what dealership figures.

 

[jadnashuanh]

After a leak empties the system, or after a purge prior to servicing, do you then also need to add new oil, or does the oil tend to remain in the system? Don't know enough about these systems.

FWIW, it's a huge fine for a service person to vent refrigerant into the air...if they don't recover it, they're liable for a major fine - think it's in the five figure range. It's not worth the risk of getting caught, IMHO.

The i3 probably has a lot more refrigerant lines than a typical vehicle's cooling system because of the numerous things it is designed to cool. More lines, more connections, more chances of one or more leaking. They don't leak test forever, so a really small one may not show. There are fluorescent dyes you can add to help pinpoint where they are, but I'm not sure all that much in the i3 would be visible.

 

[jlangham]

Well, i3Alan's ordeal scares the crap out of me! I have a 2014 BEV, from Champman BMW Chandler, that I've had for almost a year. The AC is not cooling like it should, and now I don't want the service department to even look at my car. Like Alan, I love my car but now thinking that I might just sell it and get something else. This sucks. All because of the AC.

 

[Anonymous]

I love my car but now thinking that I might just sell it and get something else.

Why not just take it in and get the AC checked out? Having the i3 AC fail, disintegrate, and destroy the system is pretty rare, like one in 50,000 cars. Most times, the AC pump just stops working properly, or there is a leak and low pressure. Likely worst case is you will have to replace the AC pump, which well be a couple of grand - which is what it costs to replace the AC pump on almost any car. Best case, it is just low pressure, and needs topping up. If you sell/trade in your car, they are going to knock off the cost to fix your AC unit, so you are going to pay for it, either way.

 

[frictioncircle]

My 2014 BEV's A/C started to get weak after about two years of ownership.

The dealer diagnosed the issue as a problem with the "refrigerant pressure temperature sensor 2", part 64 53 9 306 477. They evacuated the system and recharged it and it has been ice-cold for the past three years.

Definitely have someone look at the issue so you know what you're dealing with before selling the car!

 

[jlangham]

I love my car but now thinking that I might just sell it and get something else.

Why not just take it in and get the AC checked out? Having the i3 AC fail, disintegrate, and destroy the system is pretty rare, like one in 50,000 cars. Most times, the AC pump just stops working properly, or there is a leak and low pressure. Likely worst case is you will have to replace the AC pump, which well be a couple of grand - which is what it costs to replace the AC pump on almost any car. Best case, it is just low pressure, and needs topping up. If you sell/trade in your car, they are going to knock off the cost to fix your AC unit, so you are going to pay for it, either way.

While I normally agree with you (because I'm mostly a half full guy) that it is unlikely to happen to me, I'll be taking it to the very same dealer that messed his car up. That same dealer charged me $600 to replace the 12v battery, and almost giggled that it was 2 weeks out of warranty. That's what bothers me. Am I going to wuss out and not take it in, probably not. I'll probably take it in and see what they say.

I do love the car, so giving it up without a fight isn't going to happen easily.

 

[jlangham]

My 2014 BEV's A/C started to get weak after about two years of ownership.

The dealer diagnosed the issue as a problem with the "refrigerant pressure temperature sensor 2", part 64 53 9 306 477. They evacuated the system and recharged it and it has been ice-cold for the past three years.

Definitely have someone look at the issue so you know what you're dealing with before selling the car!

Hey, that's great! Hope that's my case. Mine gets semi coolish then looses the cool (kind of like me!). I'll turn off the air power for a 5 second count and then turn it on again. Then (most of the time) it will be semi coolish again. Sometimes will last most of my trip that I'm on that day. Sometimes I'll have to repeat the process two or three times before it gets anywhere close to cold.

 

[WillFlanery]

There seems to be a lot of misinformation in this thread and other places, or at least information that conflicts with my understanding of the system and/or physics. I have been dealing with a non-functioning A/C system for a few months. Most of the delay is due to me not having time to work on the car, and the very steep learning curve for BMW repair and the complicated AC system itself.

Some important things to know:
1) To diagnose the car, you need to three things.
a) Download the BMW-repair computer program, called ISTA+, which you can find pirated online, even through some of BMW forums.
b) Download the i3 Service and Training Manual (a collection of PDFs). In here, there is a large section about the AC system. It doesn't tell you how to fix it, but it explains what the ISTA+ diagnostics are talking about.
c) Buy an Ethernet-OBD2 adapter cable. I got mine on Amazon for $15 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07CKGPSS6/
2) The i3 BEV's AC system is relatively complicated, but not magic, nor rocket surgery. The biggest challenge is BMW's terrible explanation of how the system works (i.e. which parts are which, some errors in diagrams, German acronyms), and the changing of the system over the years with little indication about what is what (i.e. part numbers and which refrigerant/oil required).
3) BMW dealerships don't seem to know crap about the i3. Due to the relatively low number of i3 BEVs sold and the relative rarity of the compressor failing, it's likely that the service department any particular dealership has never seen the failure you are experiencing.
4) BMW service center technicians are just like robots. They either can't, or aren't allowed to, diagnose the problem themselves, nor do any work that the car and repair program didn't tell them to do, in the order it tells them to do it.
5) If BMW is estimating an insane amount of money, it's because they don't want to work on your car because they know they don't know what they're doing. Besides, if you have to ask how much it will cost, then you aren't their target customer.
6) The ISTA+ program has a diagnostic mode for the AC system that will show the compressor %power (how hard it's running), all the valve states, and the temperature/pressure sensor readings. This will help you determine whether you have a sensor failure or something else.

Some corrections to common misinformation:
1) "The system can't be flushed because of all the valves" - No. The repair procedure has a setting that opens all the valves. This is necessary to evacuate all the refrigerant and to flush the system. All the expansion valves are electronically controlled, which means they can be opened, so any metal debris caught in it will be released and flushed out.
2) "Metal shavings from a wrecked compressor will destroy a new compressor" - No. There is a Receiver/Dryer before the compressor (low pressure side) that traps particulates and moisture before the refrigerant goes into the compressor. Therefore, consider replacing this when you replace the compressor, and never flush the system backwards.
3) "Metal shavings might pierce the battery cooling channels and cause a leak" - No. That's just crazy. Even if there was a large piece of metal from the compressor, there wouldn't be enough force to actually pierce the tubing. It's more likely that some shavings would get lodged in the battery heat exchanger and cause a row of cells to not receive adequate cooling, but unlikely.
4) "The i3 battery will die without the AC system operating to cool the battery" - Not really. If the battery overheats, it will reduce power to the drive motor and flag a trouble code. I have been driving mine for a few months without functioning AC in the Florida summer and it hasn't tripped a single battery over-temperature code. (I also only have a Level-1 charger). For a while, I thought the compressor was running and cooling the batteries but not the cabin (could be caused by faulty expansion valve 1) but it turns out the compressor itself is bad (no refrigerant pressure change when it turns on).
5) "You can use UV dyes to detect leaks" - Don't do that. The system has many more moving parts (shutoff and expansion valves) that might be damaged by additives. There are electronic sensors that can sniff-out extremely small leaks. Use one of those instead.
6) "Control modules are very expensive" BMW told me they had to replace a refrigerant shutoff valve ($1000 for parts and labor) before they could replace the control module to see if it just wasn't activating the valves correctly. They said the repair procedure required doing the more invasive task of replacing the valve first, and that the module was "very expensive". Actually, the IHKA module is only $142 new, or $25 used, and was super easy to replace (took me about 10 minutes).
7) "The high voltage battery system poses an electrocution hazard, so you can't work on it yourself" - Not really. There is a shutoff/lockout switch under the hood, driver side. It's orange. Set this to the "off" position and the battery high-voltage will be disabled (12V still active).

To summarize, RELAX. Find an independent mechanic to do the work. Replacing parts is fairly easy, but you need someone with the right equipment to remove any existing refrigerant and to refill with the correct refrigerant and oil. Use a BMW-certified mechanic or download the ISTA+ program and print out the relevant repair procedures for a regular mechanic or AC repair shop.

If your car is "totaled" by the BMW-proposed repair cost, you don't have much to loose by taking your car to a non-dealer repair shop to replace the compressor. It should "only" cost about $1500 for a brand-new (latest revision) compressor and <$200 for labor.

 

[gt1]

@ WillFlanery, thank you for the incredibly detailed and useful post.

 

[i3Alan]

Some important things to know:
...
3) BMW dealerships don't seem to know crap about the i3. Due to the relatively low number of i3 BEVs sold and the relative rarity of the compressor failing, it's likely that the service department any particular dealership has never seen the failure you are experiencing.

Well, I know my dealer had another incident same as mine the week before I drove in. I also talked to the service manager at the competing dealer in town (Scottsdale) and he told me they have seen it there as well, and that the repair quote I got was in line with what they had to quote their customers with this issue. On the other hand, there are a lot of i3s in this valley, and it could be that this has only happened 4 times in this population, so we could be in the 1% range, and likely well under 5%. Also, I only know of this happening to 2014 i3s, so it could be the root cause has already been remedied by BMW.

...
5) If BMW is estimating an insane amount of money, it's because they don't want to work on your car because they know they don't know what they're doing. Besides, if you have to ask how much it will cost, then you aren't their target customer.

I believe this point is invalid. For whatever reason, and probably because it is prescribed in their diagnostic procedures, I was told the amount of metal filings found in the lines on both sides of the compressor indicated total AC system replacement was necessary. I got a picture of the metal filings sitting in the lines with the report. The report listed the many hoses, valves, etc. needing to be replaced with a dollar figure for each one, and a 44.5 hour labor total. This had nothing to do with whether or not anyone at the dealer wanted to work on my car or not, but was just following standard operating procedure for generating a customer repair quote. It has nothing to do with whether or not I had to ask how much it will cost, they would have told me what the quote is no matter what. It has nothing to do with whether I am their target customer, as I already bought their car and I brought it back to them for service. It had everything to do with 1) a ridiculously expensive repair bill that was what it was, and 2) a repair bill that exceeded the book value of the car.

6) The ISTA+ program has a diagnostic mode for the AC system that will show the compressor %power (how hard it's running), all the valve states, and the temperature/pressure sensor readings. This will help you determine whether you have a sensor failure or something else.

Good for the ISTA+ program. Metal filings clearly visible in the in and out lines of the compressor also made it clear that there was a catastrophic failure. Perhaps proper use of the correct diagnostic tools could have seen a problem the first time I brought it in for service 2 weeks before the catastrophic failure, which means the dealer should be 100% responsible for destroying my car, but I can't prove that.

Some corrections to common misinformation: ...

Addressing your following points without repeating them...

I was told the metal filings extended through the entire system, through both heat pumps. They told me that most certainly damaged all moving parts such as the valves, and that the non-moving parts, such as the hoses should be replaced as a precaution because just flushing out the old hoses may not get 100% of the debris, leaving some to potentially un-lodge later and damage other downstream parts such as a valve. They said it didn't make sense to save a small percentage of the total repair in this way, and that they would not do so unless I accepted zero service warranty on their work.

To summarize, RELAX. Find an independent mechanic to do the work. Replacing parts is fairly easy, but you need someone with the right equipment to remove any existing refrigerant and to refill with the correct refrigerant and oil. Use a BMW-certified mechanic or download the ISTA+ program and print out the relevant repair procedures for a regular mechanic or AC repair shop.

If your car is "totaled" by the BMW-proposed repair cost, you don't have much to loose by taking your car to a non-dealer repair shop to replace the compressor. It should "only" cost about $1500 for a brand-new (latest revision) compressor and <$200 for labor.

I discussed this with an independent AC service center, and they though it was likely that, like some other vehicles, the Receiver/Dryer had no trap designed in. They also said they would not work on my car because the AC Compressor itself contains a high voltage DC motor (rather than a belt driving through a clutch) which they were not comfortable working on. While they can handle what is virtually the same set up in a Prius, and do so frequently enough, they simply did not want to explore the more exotic design of the i3 AC. My guess it that it had a lot to do with the investment in BMW specific tools and documents that they did not want to make, and probably presumed there might be weeks of collecting the various parts from BMW that was not conducive to good shop logistics. Two shops simply were not interested in touching it, and wished me luck finding a more eager shop.

If another service garage could have done it for half as much, that still would have effectively totaled the car. Here are the numbers. Top book value of the car was $16K. Salvage value (what I actually got for trade-in, quoted before dealing with the price of the replacement car) was $8500. The difference of $7500 is the most that can be economically justified for any repair. Do you really think I could find an independent AC service that would do a competent repair for less than 1/3 what the BMW dealer (and the competing local BMW dealer) quoted me? Perhaps. I couldn't.

Bottom line is that a number of older i3s have had catastrophic AC failures resulting in various BMW dealers around the country quoting repair costs over $20K (based on other web reports I have seen). I have heard that BMW USA is doing more to help out the few customers having this issue more recently, but for me, they thought $2K was adequate compensation for their ****** design, and my dealer will take zero responsibility. Had they given me $7500 towards another i3 (the amount of my actual loss), I would still be driving an i3, a new one, rather than making sure this sad story is well heard on BMW and competing EV sites. BMW's terrible reputation for extremely high risk maintenance costs is simply made more evident and this is likely to deter some future buyers. I car pool to band practices with a guy who leased an X1. Because of my AC, he decided to buy another make, rather than buy out his lease as he had originally planed.

 

[KarlC]

Some important things to know:
...
3) BMW dealerships don't seem to know crap about the i3. Due to the relatively low number of i3 BEVs sold and the relative rarity of the compressor failing, it's likely that the service department any particular dealership has never seen the failure you are experiencing.

Well, I know my dealer had another incident same as mine the week before I drove in. I also talked to the service manager at the competing dealer in town (Scottsdale) and he told me they have seen it there as well, and that the repair quote I got was in line with what they had to quote their customers with this issue. On the other hand, there are a lot of i3s in this valley, and it could be that this has only happened 4 times in this population, so we could be in the 1% range, and likely well under 5%. Also, I only know of this happening to 2014 i3s, so it could be the root cause has already been remedied by BMW.

...
5) If BMW is estimating an insane amount of money, it's because they don't want to work on your car because they know they don't know what they're doing. Besides, if you have to ask how much it will cost, then you aren't their target customer.

I believe this point is invalid. For whatever reason, and probably because it is prescribed in their diagnostic procedures, I was told the amount of metal filings found in the lines on both sides of the compressor indicated total AC system replacement was necessary. I got a picture of the metal filings sitting in the lines with the report. The report listed the many hoses, valves, etc. needing to be replaced with a dollar figure for each one, and a 44.5 hour labor total. This had nothing to do with whether or not anyone at the dealer wanted to work on my car or not, but was just following standard operating procedure for generating a customer repair quote. It has nothing to do with whether or not I had to ask how much it will cost, they would have told me what the quote is no matter what. It has nothing to do with whether I am their target customer, as I already bought their car and I brought it back to them for service. It had everything to do with 1) a ridiculously expensive repair bill that was what it was, and 2) a repair bill that exceeded the book value of the car.

6) The ISTA+ program has a diagnostic mode for the AC system that will show the compressor %power (how hard it's running), all the valve states, and the temperature/pressure sensor readings. This will help you determine whether you have a sensor failure or something else.

Good for the ISTA+ program. Metal filings clearly visible in the in and out lines of the compressor also made it clear that there was a catastrophic failure. Perhaps proper use of the correct diagnostic tools could have seen a problem the first time I brought it in for service 2 weeks before the catastrophic failure, which means the dealer should be 100% responsible for destroying my car, but I can't prove that.

Some corrections to common misinformation: ...

Addressing your following points without repeating them...

I was told the metal filings extended through the entire system, through both heat pumps. They told me that most certainly damaged all moving parts such as the valves, and that the non-moving parts, such as the hoses should be replaced as a precaution because just flushing out the old hoses may not get 100% of the debris, leaving some to potentially un-lodge later and damage other downstream parts such as a valve. They said it didn't make sense to save a small percentage of the total repair in this way, and that they would not do so unless I accepted zero service warranty on their work.

To summarize, RELAX. Find an independent mechanic to do the work. Replacing parts is fairly easy, but you need someone with the right equipment to remove any existing refrigerant and to refill with the correct refrigerant and oil. Use a BMW-certified mechanic or download the ISTA+ program and print out the relevant repair procedures for a regular mechanic or AC repair shop.

If your car is "totaled" by the BMW-proposed repair cost, you don't have much to loose by taking your car to a non-dealer repair shop to replace the compressor. It should "only" cost about $1500 for a brand-new (latest revision) compressor and <$200 for labor.

I discussed this with an independent AC service center, and they though it was likely that, like some other vehicles, the Receiver/Dryer had no trap designed in. They also said they would not work on my car because the AC Compressor itself contains a high voltage DC motor (rather than a belt driving through a clutch) which they were not comfortable working on. While they can handle what is virtually the same set up in a Prius, and do so frequently enough, they simply did not want to explore the more exotic design of the i3 AC. My guess it that it had a lot to do with the investment in BMW specific tools and documents that they did not want to make, and probably presumed there might be weeks of collecting the various parts from BMW that was not conducive to good shop logistics. Two shops simply were not interested in touching it, and wished me luck finding a more eager shop.

If another service garage could have done it for half as much, that still would have effectively totaled the car. Here are the numbers. Top book value of the car was $16K. Salvage value (what I actually got for trade-in, quoted before dealing with the price of the replacement car) was $8500. The difference of $7500 is the most that can be economically justified for any repair. Do you really think I could find an independent AC service that would do a competent repair for less than 1/3 what the BMW dealer (and the competing local BMW dealer) quoted me? Perhaps. I couldn't.

Bottom line is that a number of older i3s have had catastrophic AC failures resulting in various BMW dealers around the country quoting repair costs over $20K (based on other web reports I have seen). I have heard that BMW USA is doing more to help out the few customers having this issue more recently, but for me, they thought $2K was adequate compensation for their ****** design, and my dealer will take zero responsibility. Had they given me $7500 towards another i3 (the amount of my actual loss), I would still be driving an i3, a new one, rather than making sure this sad story is well heard on BMW and competing EV sites. BMW's terrible reputation for extremely high risk maintenance costs is simply made more evident and this is likely to deter some future buyers. I car pool to band practices with a guy who leased an X1. Because of my AC, he decided to buy another make, rather than buy out his lease as he had originally planed.

Any updates on what the OP ended up doing ?

.