Seriously starting to dislike the i3-please skip if disagree

[I33t]

Actually my M Roadster is much better and almost perfect in steering, so it may be typical of some BMWs but not all.

Sorry but I just can't let you continuously twist and misrepresent what I am posting. Please reread what I posted:

I don't find the ride and handling in the sports car class, but it is nicely firm without being harsh. In fact, it rides pretty much typical for a BMW

That's not about the steering, and a M Roadster is not a typical BMW, it IS a sports car.

An engineer observes the finest details, that's their forte.

 

[epirali]

Actually my M Roadster is much better and almost perfect in steering, so it may be typical of some BMWs but not all.

Sorry but I just can't let you continuously twist and misrepresent what I am posting. Please reread what I posted:

I don't find the ride and handling in the sports car class, but it is nicely firm without being harsh. In fact, it rides pretty much typical for a BMW

That's not about the steering, and a M Roadster is not a typical BMW, it IS a sports car.

An engineer observes the finest details, that's their forte.

Actually I disagree. I do not view most M cars as sports cars, they are sporty sedans. The ride of the i3 is way too bouncy for a sedan, and has too much lateral motion for a sporty ride. It is harsh in the wrong way, but doesn't hold either. My Audi S5 absorbs bumps much better yet has almost no body roll and can corner better. So the ride of the i3 seems very confused to me.

Again rather than try to make this personal please understand I do not agree with you on this. Sure the i3 is firmer and more capable than the Leaf, but the trade off is not the same ones that work in a sporty sedan.

 

[I33t]

So a M Roadster is a sporty sedan?

I don't think you read what I wrote. The ride is firm but not harsh.

As an engineer, you would understand the difficulties in delivering a perfect ride combination in a light car that has to have the carrying capacity of 4 adults plus luggage. Cars are compromises.

So you didn't go for a test drive?

 

[epirali]

So a M Roadster is a sporty sedan?

I don't think you read what I wrote. The ride is firm but not harsh.

As an engineer, you would understand the difficulties in delivering a perfect ride combination in a light car that has to have the carrying capacity of 4 adults plus luggage. Cars are compromises.

So you didn't go for a test drive?

Actually it's not a light car for its size, it's light for a BEV. Most of the battery weight is low, so that should have helped with low center of gravity. I said MOST M cars, the M Roadster is not typical M car. The Leaf uses the low center of gravity very well, so does the Model S. The i3, not so much. I am not talking about a "perfect" ride, I am not looking for that. The term I used is confused.

I did go for a ride. Again, and I'll keep repeating until you acknowledge, is that I am not surprised by any one element. It is the TOTALITY of the car that fails for me. As you keep saying no car is perfect, but for me there is a tipping point, and the i3 after a couple of weeks tipped to the wrong side.

 

[jadnashuanh]

As you keep saying no car is perfect, but for me there is a tipping point, and the i3 after a couple of weeks tipped to the wrong side.

And yet, you still bought it...Buyer's remorse?

 

[epirali]

As you keep saying no car is perfect, but for me there is a tipping point, and the i3 after a couple of weeks tipped to the wrong side.

And yet, you still bought it...Buyer's remorse?

I've had it for three weeks now, haven't fully decided. I really started the thread, as my original post said, to kind of get help to "talk me down." Have gotten some help, but essentially a lot of what I'd say reactive argument.

I really want to hold on because of the Rex.

 

[I33t]

Actually it's not a light car for its size, it's light for a BEV. Most of the battery weight is low, so that should have helped with low center of gravity. I said MOST M cars, the M Roadster is not typical M car. The Leaf uses the low center of gravity very well, so does the Model S. The i3, not so much. I am not talking about a "perfect" ride, I am not looking for that. The term I used is confused.

I did go for a ride. Again, and I'll keep repeating until you acknowledge, is that I am not surprised by any one element. It is the TOTALITY of the car that fails for me. As you keep saying no car is perfect, but for me there is a tipping point, and the i3 after a couple of weeks tipped to the wrong side.

The i3 is not light for it's size? Really? It's a LOT lighter than my Golf, which is pretty close to the same dimensions (but a lot lower)

You quoted your example of BMW as your M Roadster. I pointed out that it isn't a typical BMW, now you seem to be agreeing with me.

The Leaf is a soft riding EV, no comparison to the i3 whether you like it or not. It's also a lot heavier. As is the Model S. As an engineer, can you explain how much easier it is for suspension designers to design compliant suspension for heavier cars vs lighter cars?

I don't keep saying no car is perfect, I said it once in this thread.

 

[epirali]

Actually it's not a light car for its size, it's light for a BEV. Most of the battery weight is low, so that should have helped with low center of gravity. I said MOST M cars, the M Roadster is not typical M car. The Leaf uses the low center of gravity very well, so does the Model S. The i3, not so much. I am not talking about a "perfect" ride, I am not looking for that. The term I used is confused.

I did go for a ride. Again, and I'll keep repeating until you acknowledge, is that I am not surprised by any one element. It is the TOTALITY of the car that fails for me. As you keep saying no car is perfect, but for me there is a tipping point, and the i3 after a couple of weeks tipped to the wrong side.

The i3 is not light for it's size? Really? It's a LOT lighter than my Golf, which is pretty close to the same dimensions (but a lot lower)

You quoted your example of BMW as your M Roadster. I pointed out that it isn't a typical BMW, now you seem to be agreeing with me.

The Leaf is a soft riding EV, no comparison to the i3 whether you like it or not. It's also a lot heavier. As is the Model S. As an engineer, can you explain how much easier it is for suspension designers to design compliant suspension for heavier cars vs lighter cars?

I don't keep saying no car is perfect, I said it once in this thread.

Look at the Honda Fit, comparable size, not quite as tall, few hundred pounds lighter. Batteries weight a lot.

Ok so please specify WHICH BMW is "typical," because the M Roadster and i8 are not according to you. But the i3 is. My experience in 5 series, 1 series sedan and X1 as passenger is that the ride is nothing like the i3. So which one is typical?

I am not really sure what your point is. Are you trying to convince me that I like the i3? I think we have firmly established that we disagree. I am not trying to convince you that you dislike the i3.

 

[I33t]

Look at the Honda Fit, comparable size, not quite as tall, few hundred pounds lighter. Batteries weight a lot.

Ok so please specify WHICH BMW is "typical," because the M Roadster and i8 are not according to you. But the i3 is. My experience in 5 series, 1 series sedan and X1 as passenger is that the ride is nothing like the i3. So which one is typical?

I am not really sure what your point is. Are you trying to convince me that I like the i3? I think we have firmly established that we disagree. I am not trying to convince you that you dislike the i3.

I know the Honda well. It is not a comparable size, it is about 3 inches narrower than the i3 and 85kg lighter. 3 inches width difference is a lot in the car world. It is not the same and the difference is obvious if you park them together as I have. I have no big problem with the car itself, but not my choice. It rides ok, but with a strong front weight bias (60:40) compared to the i3, it has quite different dynamics, and frankly the i3 has a better ride IMO.

I've been in plenty of BMW's and they all stand out as having a firm but not harsh ride unless you head up the performance line.

My point is not to convince you of anything, merely to point out that most of your complaints should have been dealt with before signing for a car that you can't see past some minor problems in. The only major problem is the Rex management, and that can be fixed in the USA with coding. You would have been better to wait for the v2 in a few years so that BMW could have refined the vehicle. The car is outstanding considering it is a from scratch, ground up electric vehicle implementation with new components, drive-train and production processes. Apparently, some engineers are unable to accept such a new implementation might have some minor niggles.

If you don't like it, get rid of it.

 

[epirali]

Look at the Honda Fit, comparable size, not quite as tall, few hundred pounds lighter. Batteries weight a lot.

Ok so please specify WHICH BMW is "typical," because the M Roadster and i8 are not according to you. But the i3 is. My experience in 5 series, 1 series sedan and X1 as passenger is that the ride is nothing like the i3. So which one is typical?

I am not really sure what your point is. Are you trying to convince me that I like the i3? I think we have firmly established that we disagree. I am not trying to convince you that you dislike the i3.

I know the Honda well. It is not a comparable size, it is about 3 inches narrower than the i3 and 85kg lighter. 3 inches width difference is a lot in the car world. It is not the same and the difference is obvious if you park them together as I have. I have no big problem with the car itself, but not my choice. It rides ok, but with a strong front weight bias (60:40) compared to the i3, it has quite different dynamics, and frankly the i3 has a better ride IMO.

I've been in plenty of BMW's and they all stand out as having a firm but not harsh ride unless you head up the performance line.

My point is not to convince you of anything, merely to point out that most of your complaints should have been dealt with before signing for a car that you can't see past some minor problems in. The only major problem is the Rex management, and that can be fixed in the USA with coding. You would have been better to wait for the v2 in a few years so that BMW could have refined the vehicle. The car is outstanding considering it is a from scratch, ground up electric vehicle implementation with new components, drive-train and production processes. Apparently, some engineers are unable to accept such a new implementation might have some minor niggles.

If you don't like it, get rid of it.

First of all I posted this thread not to engage in pointless argument, rather to decide if I should get rid of it. So that part is right on the nose.

Second by stats the Honda Fit is 160" L x 67" W x 60" H, while the i3 is 157" L x 70" W x 62". 3 inches longer, 3 inches narrower, pretty comparable and 300 pounds lighter. So please understand i3 is light for a BEV and heavier than a budget ICE of similar dimensions. The golf you mentioned is 11" longer.

I am not in agreement that my problems are first generation issues or lack of refinement. They are result in my opinion of bad decision making. Some are crippling features trying to get max credit from US due to our bad regulations, others seem like confused decisions of marketing committee (let's make a car that appeals to women but make it unnecessarily sporty for men). And some are just dumb, as if they never used the car themselves. Trunk is a great example.

And I'll ask once more: I listed all the BMWs I have very recent experience with, which one is the typical one you are referring to that rides like the i3?

 

[i3Alan]

... the i8 is a set of near perfect decisions. The engineering, the use of battery and gas engine, the ride, the suspension, the steering is so near perfect it made me assume the i3 was just as much of a product of care in detail. I honestly can't find things to point to that can't be easily explained (unlike the i3). They left so much out but it was for a greater cause.

Hey, I love the i8, but it is full of non-perfect design compromises.

The spectacularly beautiful doors are a royal pain in the *** to use. It is harder to get in and out of the i8 front seats, by far, than the rear seats of the i3 through the coach doors. I have been in other gull wing door cars that are much easier to get in and out of. (And I have been in conventional door cars that were harder, like the Tesla Roadster and the 60's vintage XKEs!)

The ICE has crummy sound, which is why BMW had to pipe in electronically generated engine sounds to cover it up.

The coupling between the ICE and the battery, in large part, has to go through the tires, which adds wear to the tires while reducing grip at the same time. It took some very smart programming to manage decoupling the power between the front and rear tires when traction needs to be maximized, while also doing a great job managing battery charge. I do expect to hear tire wear on the i8 to be very poor, even for very high performance rubber.

The front hood covers some nice engineering that is worth showing off, but it considered off-limits for opening by the customer, and requires two people to open.

The electric range is marginal at best. This car is likely to see more gas miles than electron miles if used regularly, which goes against EV and plug-in EV typical goals. While the i3 REX is closer to an EV than a plug-in hybrid, the i8 is closer to a hybrid than a plug-in hybrid in many typical use scenarios.

Like I said, I love the i8, but even this wonder-car has plenty of compromises within.

 

[epirali]

... the i8 is a set of near perfect decisions. The engineering, the use of battery and gas engine, the ride, the suspension, the steering is so near perfect it made me assume the i3 was just as much of a product of care in detail. I honestly can't find things to point to that can't be easily explained (unlike the i3). They left so much out but it was for a greater cause.

Hey, I love the i8, but it is full of non-perfect design compromises.

The spectacularly beautiful doors are a royal pain in the *** to use. It is harder to get in and out of the i8 front seats, by far, than the rear seats of the i3 through the coach doors. I have been in other gull wing door cars that are much easier to get in and out of. (And I have been in conventional door cars that were harder, like the Tesla Roadster and the 60's vintage XKEs!)

The ICE has crummy sound, which is why BMW had to pipe in electronically generated engine sounds to cover it up.

The coupling between the ICE and the battery, in large part, has to go through the tires, which adds wear to the tires while reducing grip at the same time. It took some very smart programming to manage decoupling the power between the front and rear tires when traction needs to be maximized, while also doing a great job managing battery charge. I do expect to hear tire wear on the i8 to be very poor, even for very high performance rubber.

The front hood covers some nice engineering that is worth showing off, but it considered off-limits for opening by the customer, and requires two people to open.

The electric range is marginal at best. This car is likely to see more gas miles than electron miles if used regularly, which goes against EV and plug-in EV typical goals. While the i3 REX is closer to an EV than a plug-in hybrid, the i8 is closer to a hybrid than a plug-in hybrid in many typical use scenarios.

Like I said, I love the i8, but even this wonder-car has plenty of compromises within.

I don't disagree with your points, but in my mind the compromises all contribute to what the car is. For example the doors are a pain, but allow for better aerodynamics/body structure. Contrast that to not being to unlock the trunk from FOB in i3, what did it gain the car?

The engine noise (which I like btw) say is "crummy," but that is because you have a lighter smaller 3 cylinder turbo for weight, which performs very will with the electric motor. The overly twitchy steering wheel on the i3, besides trying to create a fake "sporty" feel what does it gain the car?

I think the hood not opening on the i8 is not necessarily a valid complaint. There is nothing there for typical owners, and probably the complex hinging allowed for certain design considerations. Yes I know, you need a funnel to fill up the windshield wiper fluid...

And honestly with a car like the i8 I expect tire wear. The compromises or issues are all because of, or a decision to, the nature and character of the car. I don't agree that the i3 has the same issues, it has issues simply because of bad decisions (in my opinion).

And finally the i8 is not a mass production/mass market car. But the i3 is SUPPOSED to be. And strangely people with put up with more issues with exotic items, but demand more from daily items.

 

[Sparky17]

Late to the party, but I just want to say that I'm loving the i3 more and more all the time. Every car I've ever owned had a few things I didn't like, and the i3 is no exception. But overall I think it is probably the best car I've ever owned or driven.

 

[I33t]

Look at the Honda Fit, comparable size, not quite as tall, few hundred pounds lighter. Batteries weight a lot.

Ok so please specify WHICH BMW is "typical," because the M Roadster and i8 are not according to you. But the i3 is. My experience in 5 series, 1 series sedan and X1 as passenger is that the ride is nothing like the i3. So which one is typical?

I am not really sure what your point is. Are you trying to convince me that I like the i3? I think we have firmly established that we disagree. I am not trying to convince you that you dislike the i3.

I know the Honda well. It is not a comparable size, it is about 3 inches narrower than the i3 and 85kg lighter. 3 inches width difference is a lot in the car world. It is not the same and the difference is obvious if you park them together as I have. I have no big problem with the car itself, but not my choice. It rides ok, but with a strong front weight bias (60:40) compared to the i3, it has quite different dynamics, and frankly the i3 has a better ride IMO.

I've been in plenty of BMW's and they all stand out as having a firm but not harsh ride unless you head up the performance line.

My point is not to convince you of anything, merely to point out that most of your complaints should have been dealt with before signing for a car that you can't see past some minor problems in. The only major problem is the Rex management, and that can be fixed in the USA with coding. You would have been better to wait for the v2 in a few years so that BMW could have refined the vehicle. The car is outstanding considering it is a from scratch, ground up electric vehicle implementation with new components, drive-train and production processes. Apparently, some engineers are unable to accept such a new implementation might have some minor niggles.

If you don't like it, get rid of it.

First of all I posted this thread not to engage in pointless argument, rather to decide if I should get rid of it. So that part is right on the nose.

Second by stats the Honda Fit is 160" L x 67" W x 60" H, while the i3 is 157" L x 70" W x 62". 3 inches longer, 3 inches narrower, pretty comparable and 300 pounds lighter. So please understand i3 is light for a BEV and heavier than a budget ICE of similar dimensions. The golf you mentioned is 11" longer.

No idea how you know which Golf I have. It's LOA is 4,176 mm, the i3 is 3999mm. If I removed the (plastic) protruding bumpers, it would be substantially shorter than the i3. Width is more important than length in terms of body weight of a vehicle.

I am not in agreement that my problems are first generation issues or lack of refinement. They are result in my opinion of bad decision making. Some are crippling features trying to get max credit from US due to our bad regulations, others seem like confused decisions of marketing committee (let's make a car that appeals to women but make it unnecessarily sporty for men). And some are just dumb, as if they never used the car themselves. Trunk is a great example.

The Rex control, I agree with. The rest is bunk. BMW doesn't do soft spongy riding cars, and the i3 is no exception. I've had mine since december last year and I have parked it plenty of busy carparks - there has been general admiration from both sexes, so I don't think BMW styled this car just for women, what they did was to design it to stand out from the crowd. It gets a lot of attention, dare I say it, more than my Porsche. What is your issue with the Trunk? no, forget that, you saw it before you bought it so it can't be anything other than another buyer remorse issue. Get rid of it.

And I'll ask once more: I listed all the BMWs I have very recent experience with, which one is the typical one you are referring to that rides like the i3?

I'm not talking about any particular model, I'm talking about BMW's overall ride quality for their non sports cars: Firm but not harsh, just like the i3.

 

[epirali]

And I stated clearly non of the BMWs I know, the M Roadster, 5 series, 1 series, X1, i8 ride anything like the i3. None are bouncy and the i3 has more lateral motion than the 5 series. So I simply do not agree. The i3 ride is from too short a wheelbase combined with wrongly tuned suspension on a heavy car (comparative to its size).

I do not know which golf you have so I pulled current stats. But the Honda fit stats are dead on.

Honestly there is little point continuing this discussion. The i3 so far is not a success by sales. One of the reasons I got one is because they can be had for $10k under msrp before any tax credits. So by that metric it isn't as hot as you are finding it, at least not in the U.S. I saw very few in London and UK, but maybe it is popular in other countries.

 

[jadnashuanh]

The construction methodology of the i3 is a limiting factor on how many they can build economically. They're still building them about as fast as they can, and profitably from all reports. No EV is a really high volume machine, and with the still poor EVSE and CCS networks around the country, and the long ranges between anything in parts of the US, an EV just doesn't make sense a lot of places. Throw in rear-wheel drive when the common person wants front-wheel or all-wheel also becomes a limiting factor. Generally, city streets tend to get cleared sooner than the boonies and there's less drifting and such, which supports the mega-city use - the main commuter streets are clear. The nature of the i3 is best for running around and to a nearby city, with a lot of those miles in the city. There, the tight turning circle and shorter length make it much easier to navigate and park. It was built for the average daily use of around 30-40 miles, which means, even at its worst battery performance in the middle of a cold spell, it can still easily provide the needed range. Yes, you can use the car in other ways, but the basis of the design was shorter distances, narrow streets, small turning circle, and some fun along the way. ONe has to agree, it is a blast to leave most things at the stoplight if you wish. The size of the motor and the battery were optimized for those characteristics. The power/weight ratio beats most others out there as does the efficiency. A bigger battery pack would add more weight, and likely, the gains would not be a linear add-on. Eventually (and BMW has already said they have better batteries in the lab) there will be longer range without added weight. It was not intended to replace an ICE that because of the quick refill, and essentially universal access to fuel, can just keep going. The i3 BEV has the equivalent of less than a gallon of gasoline, yet is rated at 124mpge...better than pretty much anything else out there. Throw in the REx, and you have (small, but real) maintenance issues, higher weight, and lower mpge. For some, a perceived, but maybe not real, requirement. For what I use my BEV for, I don't have range anxiety. I find my ICE more comfortable on longer trips, and to me, sitting in an i3 REx for hours on end, stopping at least every hour to refill the tank, is just not a comfortable way to take a trip. Yes, my ICE is more costly, but I put up with it, some are more focused on the energy costs, and do not. Added into the inconvenience of stopping, I just do not see the i3 as a long-distance vehicle, and, the seats, steering, ride, etc. weren't designed for it either. Yes you can use it that way, fine by me, I could care less what others do, it's just not my way of doing things.

I do not know of any vehicle sold that matches my preference list, everything is a compromise. All you can do is try to understand what those compromises are, and decide if you can put up with them, preferably, before you purchase a vehicle. BMW makes it fairly easy for people to try out an i3 for a several day outing to evaluate it. That should be long enough to decide if things are acceptable. To repeatedly beat on minor things after the fact just sounds like whining. It is what it is, and was done for a reason. YOu may not like it, but that's the way it is. BMW spent lots of time working out the vehicle. The details on the REx's operation were not their preference, and negotiations went on almost until the day it was officially released. It is much easier to have one baseline in the country. It used to be that there were vehicles made specifically for CA, but today, that is a rarity. Other places in the country put up with various things that they don't need to as a result, but it also means the manufacturer can redirect a vehicle anywhere, and people can move and not worry about trying to retrofit bits to meet CA's rules. As it is, CA is probably the biggest EV market in the entire USA...training, and parts, and support all work more efficiently when you only have one baseline for the REx. It's not like after officially introduced for sale that they changed things, either. It really doesn't matter how it works elsewhere, you should buy it based on how it is sold here. If it doesn't meet your needs, don't, or be prepared to deal with it as the vehicle goes into the dealer's for maintenance, as any software update generally erases any coding you may have done.

 

[epirali]

Thank you for the response. I actually think the i3 w/Rex has a potential to cross over from BEV enthusiasts (like me) to wider market. It is priced a little high, but I can know a lot of people who wouldn't jump to a BEV only, but the simple piece of mind of the Rex is the tipping point. I believe the range of i3/Rex is perfect for a vast majority of people. Which is why I switched from a Leaf. In fact two friends who I have taken on a spin are now seriously considering the i3.

You are correct, BMW does have a very good test drive program and it is strictly my own error to not have used it. I was out of town and had a time deadline, so I didn't take advantage. Also this is an ancillary commuter car for me, so the decision wasn't as critical. And honestly after the i8 experience I just assumed the i3 would have the same level of attention to driver experience.

But I'll maintain its not whining to point out issues. As others have said if you can't live with it move on, and that is the whole point of this thread. Honestly the reactive posts just tend to push people away. Discounting legitimate criticsm serves no purpose.

I am still hoping to hang on after update and coding changes, and am giving the car a fair amount of time for me to "adjust." One poster here who switched from Leaf mentioned he really liked it after he adjusted to the i3, so I'm following his advice.

 

[epirali]

Btw something else you may say is "whining" but is a real issue at work where three of us share an EVSE: the charge cable remains locked while the car is locked even after charging stops. And there is no override.

So I either have to leave the car unlocked outside, or go last otherwise others are locked out of using the EVSE I'm sorry but this is not a design decision, this is simply from not studying the problem. Even loonking at the leaf would have made the need for this clear.

Anyone here use public charge stations? What am I missing?

 

[spinball]

I've read that I Europe, the cable is usually owned by the driver, thus the locking is preferred. Would need confirmation from someone that lives there.

 

[jadnashuanh]

The regen on the i3 is infinitely adjustable, and some people take some time to adjust, especially if they are coming from another EV. Instead of some fixed regen rates you have on some cars, just by where you position your foot, can easily go from coasting (no regen) to max to meet the situation. Most people at first drive it like an ICE, you remove your foot from the gas, and it coasts while maybe hovering over the brake pedal. That's not how you drive the i3. If you do, you'll hate it, too. THey decreased the maximum regen for this reason in one of the s/w updates...I would have preferred to keep it as it was, but it is still easy to one-pedal drive the thing. This was a white paper vehicle and pretty much every detail was looked at. Cost wasn't a major issue, so they could have done things almost any way.

The i8 had very different guidelines for a very different purpose. The i8 was designed so it could be used as an ICE replacement, with all of the expected longer time in the vehicle, various things with totally different focus. The common thing was white paper start and that it would be made with CFRP and have an electric capability. The ICE in the i8 is fully capable of recharging the battery pack unless you're on a track, using full power frequently, which is not how sane people drive on the street if they want to keep their licenses.