Pathetic charging of i3 compared to B Class Electric

[jadnashuanh]

Again...the i3 NEVER charges the battery pack to a real 100%. And, once it reaches what to you is indicated 100%, it shuts off...drawing zero current from the EVSE. It does not switch to a trickle charge, it drops to disconnected and will only reconnect once it has dropped about 5%, and with the small parasitic losses on the i3, that's going to take more than a few days before it will top up again. It will turn on if you send a preconditioning request to it, but that's pretty much bringing in enough power to run the requested load, not really charging the batteries. This is not your typical cellphone.

 

[jadnashuanh]

The MB, at full charge, would require more than 40A to max out its on-board charging circuit (about 45A depending on input voltage), so given the 125% rules...a 50A circuit would not suffice to feed it, thus my indicating a 60A circuit minimum. A quick look at relative prices, that larger EVSE can have a 50% larger hit to buy, not counting the increased cost of the wiring to make it work over one that can max out the i3. Considering most public EVSEs available now, you'd be charging at a max of about 2/3'rds of the maximum capacity, or at about 100% of what an i3 can use on your MB.

I don't know about you, but I'm not likely to seek out a campground to recharge my i3. Most people that can afford a Tesla are not likely to be pulling a trailer and staying there, either. The MB has a larger on-board charger IMHO, somewhat as bragging rights, and somewhat related to the fact their battery pack is larger (much heavier car, with slightly larger max range), so to recharge it in a reasonable time, guess what, it takes a bigger charger. Bigger unit, more weight, more space, more heat, more loss of incremental max range. I'm not convinced the i3's is in any way inferior just because it is smaller...it's smaller because it doesn't need to be bigger. If you really want to recharge faster, a CCS unit is the way to go, and right now, the MB doesn't offer that even as an option. Inferior? You decide.

 

[mindmachine]

Again...the i3 NEVER charges the battery pack to a real 100%. And, once it reaches what to you is indicated 100%, it shuts off...drawing zero current from the EVSE. It does not switch to a trickle charge, it drops to disconnected and will only reconnect once it has dropped about 5%, and with the small parasitic losses on the i3, that's going to take more than a few days before it will top up again. It will turn on if you send a preconditioning request to it, but that's pretty much bringing in enough power to run the requested load, not really charging the batteries. This is not your typical cellphone.

I understand that fact, however if I am not going anywhere for 2,3 or even 4 days I don't want to leave the car sit fully charged since it is not as good for the battery as a 50 to 70% soc. This scenario for me occurs every week as I am retired and may not leave the house sometimes all week.

Batteries don't like being empty or full either, when not in use a 45 to 65 % charge is best for them. I am accounting for the unusable buffer at both ends.

 

[Anonymous]

Keep in mind that most public EVSEs will not take advantage of the MB's larger charger - most of them max out at about what the i3 chose...and, if you really want to take advantage of it, that means spending a lot more money on your own because of the larger gauge wiring and more expensive unit you'll need to purchase.

90A 220V chargers that span Canada's longest road:
https://suncountryhighway.ca/worlds-longest-greenest-highway-project/

Here in Ontario, we have many dozens of 90A chargers which can be fully utilized by Tesla's (Model S and Roadster). We also many dozens of 60A chargers.

The Mercedes B Class ED will be able to charge at it's maximum rate on those.

Meanwhile, we have a single CCS charger in all of Ontario...and it's not working properly (as many folks using DCQC technology that isn't Tesla can tell you about on these forums).

 

[Anonymous]

Most household EVSEs will supply 32 amps from a branch circuit that has a 40A breaker. Or less. And the BMW will charge at a max current of about 32 amps on a Level 2 EVSE. So no, the M-B doesn't really charge faster in most situations. But it does have a charger that's too big for the job it has to do.

Ontario offers 50% rebate on EVSE. The majority of Tesla owners have 80A chargers in their homes. If I owned a MB B ED or a Tesla, it would make a lot of sense to get the biggest current possible to make use of the larger battery pack offered in these cars. I'd want the option to charge rapidly if I had a situation where I needed to travel a longer distance and had not fully charged my car the night before.

The Tesla 80A charger is a $800 option when you buy the car.

 

[Anonymous]

Say your Tesla has the battery run down, and you're no where near a supercharger...use a public EVSE that has 23A, and if left in the morning, come back after supper. The size of the internal charging unit is irrelevant unless there's places that can make use of it.

Frankly, Tesla is doing an amazing job of rolling out DCQC (aka Supercharger) technology across the US, Europe and Asia.

It won't be much longer than 2015/6 in the continental US that you will be more than half the car's range from the nearest supercharger.

The size of the internal charger is very much relevent, especially when there are places you can use it, like that which has been done here in Canada for Sun Country Highway, and Tesla with their supercharger.

 

[Anonymous]

The Tesla charger pulls 40 amps max, not 45, and requires a 50 amp circuit breaker, not 60.

The Tesla offers "dual charger" option ($1800) which supports 80A charging off a 90A breaker.
There are many 90A chargers in Ontario Canada due to Sun Country Highway as I noted above.

Tesla is also rolling out a "destination charger" program:
http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

Tesla is working with hotels, resorts, and other destinations to encourage the installation of High Power Wall Connectors where our customers spend time away from home. If your organization is interested in offering charging to Tesla owners, send us a note here, or email [email protected]

Want more?
Plugshare.com shows around 50 of the 80A full speed Tesla wall chargers in Ontario alone, not including the superchargers they are installing. This is just the ones listed, not counting the many more J1772 90A sun country units.

Plugshare.com shows 200+ such units in California.

 

[jadnashuanh]

In the USA, you couldn't install an 80A EVSE on a 90A circuit...125% of 80A isn't 90A! And, while I'm sure there are many homes with electrical service capable of an 80A load, there are a very significant number of homes where that would way overload their service and require a major upgrade, if available at all. In my townhouse, it would be nearly impossible to upgrade my service which is currently 100A.

If you really want to use one of Tesla's superchargers and the nearest one is 1/2 your range away, why? 1/2 to get there, fill it up, 1/2 to get home, you'd end up with what you started with! Both Canada and the USA are vast...it is very easy to be way outside of the range where a supercharger would be useful. They do work fine IF your route runs along a major interstate, but there are lots of places people like to go where that is just too far away to be viable. The nearest one to me is about 80-miles away...so, with the roads, that's 3-4 hours wasted if I wanted to go there to recharge for 'free' (and that's if you have that option). It's irrelevant that it may only take a short time. Even with an 80A EVSE on a Tesla, it's over 4-hours to recharge the 85Kw battery from empty. The size of the charging unit is proportional to the size of the internal battery...the i3's can charge itself in about the same time as the Tesla (probably less). The same thing is true with the MB. Your argument that bigger is better only applies to the idea that if you have a bigger battery, it must be better, and to support it rationally, you also need a bigger charging unit in the car.

There is a limit on how fast you can pump electrons into a battery with today's tech. That may change tomorrow. For now, if you're using a level 2 unit, most of the available public ones are rarely larger than 40A, and that will charge an i3 in its maximum rate. Not true with the MB or the Tesla. Whether we'll see more CCS units installed will depend on the market and the vehicle manufacturers. Whether BMW and Tesla can agree to modify their units with the logic board and cord to charge those with the J1772 DC fast charging option (and BMW is not the only one) is a business decision only time will tell. For the time being, the MB couldn't take advantage of that, regardless...it is not available with that option.

Heat management is critical for battery life. You'll generate a lot more heat pumping 80A into a battery pack than you would 32A. Bigger isn't always better...

 

[hamgolfer]

Then there is also the big tail off, where the last 15% takes 90 minutes instead of the 30 min it would take if the power uptake were not reduced.

I suppose one can also excuse that as being better for the battery.

But, the Tesla supplied system in the MB B class Electric does not seem to need it.

That's because in the MB you are not charging to 100% unless you push the optional button on the dash.

OK, I finally did the test with MB B Class Electric, charging with it with and without the "Range" button activated. EVSE - BMW Wallbox Pure - Max 7.2KW.

Without the range extension, the MB stops charging at 88%. It charges at full rate (7.1KW) till it hits this limit and then it just disconnects.

With the range extension, it charges it again charges at full rate (7.1KW) till the last 9 minutes when it ramps down to cut-off.

Comparing with BMW with the defective KLE which charges at 5.9KW to 85% and then has a 75-90 min ramp down for the last 15%, the Tesla/MB setup is quite a bit better.

 

[wayne325]

Comparing with BMW with the defective KLE which charges at 5.9KW to 85% and then has a 75-90 min ramp down for the last 15%, the Tesla/MB setup is quite a bit better.

That is a highly inaccurate statement; it is nothing like what is important.

This is far more accurate:

Comparing with BMW with the defective KLE which charges at 5.9KW to 85% and then has a 75-90 min ramp down for the last 15%, the Tesla/MB setup is quite a bit better if I'm waiting for the car to charge AND I have to drive more than 68 miles before I can get to yet another charge.

Why we're comparing one charging system with a suboptimal one that is going to be replaced as part of a recall I'm not quite sure.

We can also say this: "Comparing the BMW i3 with the DC fast charger which charges from empty to 85% in 20 minutes with the Tesla/MB setup - the BMW is in another league".

These discussions where EV charging is discussed in context of fueling an ICE-based car is bizarre. It's not how the cars are used for 99.99% of the miles driven. The correct charging paradigm is comparison to a cell phone, not a gas-powered car.

 

[jadnashuanh]

One has to ask if MB (or Tesla) report a real 100%, or like BMW, NEVER let you charge the batteries to a REAL 100%. Likewise on the discharge end. BMW could eke out more miles if they wanted to abuse the battery, or their warranty wasn't as long, but they chose to be more conservative. Charging it to a real 100% and discharging it to nearly empty should get the average person more than 90-miles like is advertised by the MB with its larger battery and heavier chassis (i3 peer group is averaging about 4.3 miles/Kw). But, again, they chose not to with today's current battery tech and the intent of the car.

FWIW, I have the latest s/w in my I3, and it charges with my 30A EVSE at about 6.9Kw, or about 29A at 245vac...IOW, because it isn't up against the high temperature adjustment logic in the charger, it is charging at full rate. Again, managing heat is crucial for battery longevity, and BMW has a pretty good battery warranty. If MB has a battery warranty that extends beyond the rest of the standard 4-years, 40K miles, it is not apparent on their website...one would think they'd make a point about it. I've not checked Tesla's site to see how they warrant their batteries, so can't compare. Until spring and warmer weather shows up, the current limitation in charging rate on the i3 won't affect most people, and by then, the new KLE's should be available and the software restored to allowing max rate except in unusual circumstances.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Just plugging into to any 50 amp circuit, like those found at RV parks, provides full 40 amp power. Tesla cars come with a portable charger cord that allows full 40 amp charging. BMW does not.

Actually I have a portable 30 amp charging cord, not provided by BMW but still readily available from Clipper Creek for a measly
wait for it $590. So I don't see that the Tesla is that much better and I don't know what KOA camp grounds would charge me for a quick charge vs renting a space over night. Probably price prohibitive as compared to charging at a real level 2 charging station vs using my portable 30 amp 240 volt portable plug in unit by Clipper Creek at KOA.

So, you're making points on issues that you clearly have zero experience with?

I have actually driven thousands of miles with not much more than RV park charging (and no 650cc motorcycle engine or other fossil fuel equipment).

Yes, having a 40 amp charger is a big deal when you use 50 amp circuits, particularly when it can subtract hours from each charge event.

I guess I fail to follow whatever rational that explains that Tesla provides a 40 amp portable charge cable with every car they ever produced (including Roadster), and BMW doesn't.

Yes, of course you can buy one... not from BMW. Our company sells plenty of the Tesla 40 amp charge cables to BMW i3 owners, however.

 

[jadnashuanh]

Yes, of course you can buy one... not from BMW. Our company sells plenty of the Tesla 40 amp charge cables to BMW i3 owners, however.

Unless you are buying for your NEXT car, a 40A system is useless on an i3. It can never draw more than 32A, regardless, and you can save some money buying one that matches the vehicle you're driving. Your analogy is saying plugging your 1A phone charger into a 20A circuit has got to work better than plugging it into a 15A circuit. ANd, yes, I do know if you hard-wire a 32A unit, it must be wired and fused for 40A. That same unit must plug into a 50A circuit, since there are no 40A standard plugs, but it still will only draw a max of 32, even if the EVSE could provide more. A Tesla out the door is often 2x the cost of an i3 so yes, they can afford to play with a bigger EVSE and internal charger...calling the i3 inadequate is misguided.

Certainly, you can buy an EVSE with a plug designed to attach to anything you want, or make an adapter, if you can't find one built. But, whether it is a 50A plug or even larger, it still won't charge the i3 any faster than a 32A unit (and since there are no standard USA 40A plugs, you end up with one capable of 50A - typically either a NEMA 14-50, or NEMA 6-50).

 

[TonyWilliams]

Yes, of course you can buy one... not from BMW. Our company sells plenty of the Tesla 40 amp charge cables to BMW i3 owners, however.

Unless you are buying for your NEXT car, a 40A system is useless on an i3. It can never draw more than 32A, regardless, and you can save some money buying one that matches the vehicle you're driving. Your analogy is saying plugging your 1A phone charger into a 20A circuit has got to work better than plugging it into a 15A circuit. ANd, yes, I do know if you hard-wire a 32A unit, it must be wired and fused for 40A. That same unit must plug into a 50A circuit, since there are no 40A standard plugs, but it still will only draw a max of 32, even if the EVSE could provide more. A Tesla out the door is often 2x the cost of an i3 so yes, they can afford to play with a bigger EVSE and internal charger...calling the i3 inadequate is misguided.

Certainly, you can buy an EVSE with a plug designed to attach to anything pyou want, or make an adapter, if you can't find one built. But, whether it is a 50A plug or even larger, it still won't charge the i3 any faster than a 32A unit (and since there are no standard USA 40A plugs, you end up with one capable of 50A - typically either a NEMA 14-50, or NEMA 6-50).

I think we are getting WAY off base here. The BMW doesn't have an adequate portable charge cord either included with the car, or available from BMW. The cost of the car doesn't preclude offering an optional, extra cost product.

That's just a fact. You call that inadequate, not me.

The rest of my comments are similarly somewhat taken a bit out of context. Never did I claim that an i3 would charge faster than 30/32 amps. That's an actual limitation of the i3. In addition, the i3 currently is further limited below 30/32 amps due to manufacturing and/or design flaws.

 

[mindmachine]

Just plugging into to any 50 amp circuit, like those found at RV parks, provides full 40 amp power. Tesla cars come with a portable charger cord that allows full 40 amp charging. BMW does not.

Actually I have a portable 30 amp charging cord, not provided by BMW but still readily available from Clipper Creek for a measly
wait for it $590. So I don't see that the Tesla is that much better and I don't know what KOA camp grounds would charge me for a quick charge vs renting a space over night. Probably price prohibitive as compared to charging at a real level 2 charging station vs using my portable 30 amp 240 volt portable plug in unit by Clipper Creek at KOA.

So, you're making points on issues that you clearly have zero experience with?

I have actually driven thousands of miles with not much more than RV park charging (and no 650cc motorcycle engine or other fossil fuel equipment).

Yes, having a 40 amp charger is a big deal when you use 50 amp circuits, particularly when it can subtract hours from each charge event.

I guess I fail to follow whatever rational that explains that Tesla provides a 40 amp portable charge cable with every car they ever produced (including Roadster), and BMW doesn't.

Yes, of course you can buy one... not from BMW. Our company sells plenty of the Tesla 40 amp charge cables to BMW i3 owners, however.

Don't know why a BMW owner would want a 40 amp EVSE since the 30 amp unit is all the i3 can utilize?

Well for my needs anyway it is all a bunch of BS 40 amp vs 50 amp whatever. I also have the DC rapid charge option, so when they are available I can charge to 80% from empty in 20 minutes. I have never yet used my portable charger as I can usually get a level 2 charge where I want to go (usually it is a free charge even) and if I can't I have the 650 cc motorcycle engine to get me there. No KOA campground charging for me, what do you do while waiting watch the grass grow? Most all of the Level 2 chargers I use afford all kinds of shopping and dining opportunities in close proximity and even other entertainment options too numerous to mention. Just saying!

I looked at Tesla and at nearly twice the price it just wasn't what I wanted, even if it had a lower price premium, I can't see carrying around that much weight and I did not want a conventional car look either. I might have sprung for the model X SUV, it is more to my liking, but again way to heavy and high priced. I can afford two Tesla's if I wanted them, cool cars in many ways, but they are just not my cup of tea I guess.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Don't know why a BMW owner would want a 40 amp EVSE since the 30 amp unit is all the i3 can utilize?

Clearly, you would have to ask each of them. I'm sure the reasons are a bit more varied than a monolithic i3 charge situation today.

Well for my needs anyway it is all a bunch of BS 40 amp vs 50 amp whatever. I also have the DC rapid charge option, so when they are available I can charge to 80% from empty in 20 minutes. I have never yet used my portable charger as I can usually get a level 2 charge where I want to go (usually it is a free charge even)...

I can't count how many times this pops up on the Internet. Your needs reflect what everybody else should find "normal", and everything else is "BS".

I don't think you'll get 0-80% charge in 20 minutes with the 25kW Bosch chargers that BMW is currently installing, and your portable charge cable will be insanely slow. I don't even carry 120/12 amp cables in any of my EV's... I would call a tow truck before I would wait for one of those!!!

... and if I can't I have the 650 cc motorcycle engine to get me there. No KOA campground charging for me, what do you do while waiting watch the grass grow? Most all of the Level 2 chargers I use afford all kinds of shopping and dining opportunities in close proximity and even other entertainment options too numerous to mention. Just saying!

The old gasoline engine... congratulations. You can burn gasoline. It's impossible for me to debate the obvious answer for EV charging, gasoline generators. Clearly, with 80 million gasoline powered cars sold each year, gasoline is "it".

If you used that 12 amp or less portable charge cable that you're carrying around, you'd get to watch the grass grow, get mowed, and grow some more before you're charged up!

As to RV park charging, if you drive outside of metropolitan areas, there tends to be little to no L2 public charging, making campgrounds the best place for power. There won't be shopping malls, either! For entertainment, how about horse shoes and darts? Or shuffle board?

I tend to not limit myself to cities with shopping malls.

I looked at Tesla and at nearly twice the price it just wasn't what I wanted, even if it had a lower price premium, I can't see carrying around that much weight and I did not want a conventional car look either. I might have sprung for the model X SUV, it is more to my liking, but again way to heavy and high priced. I can afford two Tesla's if I wanted them, cool cars in many ways, but they are just not my cup of tea I guess.

The thread isn't about TESLA CARS, but the Tesla charger in the Mercedes Benz B-Class ED versus the charge rate of the BMW i3.

Both cars have nearly identical prices, making your comparison moot.

I'm at home right now after driving to an EV breakfast in Temecula, about 50 miles north of me. I fully charged the Mercedes B-Class ED and drove there. After breakfast, I drove back for over 100 miles round trip.

No gasoline required (or desired for me), and I can fully charge it again for another 100 mile trip in about 3.5 hours at 40 amps. Next year, when it has a CHAdeMO port on it like all my Toyota RAV4 EV's, I'll be able to recharge in about an hour total.

Or, charge from 20% to 80%, adding 19kW at 42kW average speed (120 amps * 365 volts nominal) for 70 miles of additional range... in about 25 minutes. That's not marketing BS from an automaker; that's what it will actually do with currently installed CHAdeMO all over the world.

I don't even have to wait for a special, lower powered charging network.

 

[Sparky]

Why are you posting on the i3 site if you have the MBZ? Just wondering.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Why are you posting on the i3 site if you have the MBZ? Just wondering.

The thread is specific to both the i3 and Mercedes B-Class ED.

I post on all EV related sites, including this one.

 

[mindmachine]

Don't know why a BMW owner would want a 40 amp EVSE since the 30 amp unit is all the i3 can utilize?

Clearly, you would have to ask each of them. I'm sure the reasons are a bit more varied than a monolithic i3 charge situation today.

Well for my needs anyway it is all a bunch of BS 40 amp vs 50 amp whatever. I also have the DC rapid charge option, so when they are available I can charge to 80% from empty in 20 minutes. I have never yet used my portable charger as I can usually get a level 2 charge where I want to go (usually it is a free charge even)...

I can't count how many times this pops up on the Internet. Your needs reflect what everybody else should find "normal", and everything else is "BS".

I don't think you'll get 0-80% charge in 20 minutes with the 25kW Bosch chargers that BMW is currently installing, and your portable charge cable will be insanely slow. I don't even carry 120/12 amp cables in any of my EV's... I would call a tow truck before I would wait for one of those!!!

... and if I can't I have the 650 cc motorcycle engine to get me there. No KOA campground charging for me, what do you do while waiting watch the grass grow? Most all of the Level 2 chargers I use afford all kinds of shopping and dining opportunities in close proximity and even other entertainment options too numerous to mention. Just saying!

The old gasoline engine... congratulations. You can burn gasoline. It's impossible for me to debate the obvious answer for EV charging, gasoline generators. Clearly, with 80 million gasoline powered cars sold each year, gasoline is "it".

If you used that 12 amp or less portable charge cable that you're carrying around, you'd get to watch the grass grow, get mowed, and grow some more before you're charged up!

As to RV park charging, if you drive outside of metropolitan areas, there tends to be little to no L2 public charging, making campgrounds the best place for power. There won't be shopping malls, either! For entertainment, how about horse shoes and darts? Or shuffle board?

I tend to not limit myself to cities with shopping malls.

I looked at Tesla and at nearly twice the price it just wasn't what I wanted, even if it had a lower price premium, I can't see carrying around that much weight and I did not want a conventional car look either. I might have sprung for the model X SUV, it is more to my liking, but again way to heavy and high priced. I can afford two Tesla's if I wanted them, cool cars in many ways, but they are just not my cup of tea I guess.

The thread isn't about TESLA CARS, but the Tesla charger in the Mercedes Benz B-Class ED versus the charge rate of the BMW i3.

Both cars have nearly identical prices, making your comparison moot.

I'm at home right now after driving to an EV breakfast in Temecula, about 50 miles north of me. I fully charged the Mercedes B-Class ED and drove there. After breakfast, I drove back for over 100 miles round trip.

No gasoline required (or desired for me), and I can fully charge it again for another 100 mile trip in about 3.5 hours at 40 amps. Next year, when it has a CHAdeMO port on it like all my Toyota RAV4 EV's, I'll be able to recharge in about an hour total.

Or, charge from 20% to 80%, adding 19kW at 42kW average speed (120 amps * 365 volts nominal) for 70 miles of additional range... in about 25 minutes. That's not marketing BS from an automaker; that's what it will actually do with currently installed CHAdeMO all over the world.

I don't even have to wait for a special, lower powered charging network.

I see where you are coming from, case in point I WASN'T TALKING ABOUT THE BOSCH 25 KW UNIT BMW IS INSTALLING AND I SAID MY PORTABLE UNIT IS A CLIPPER CREEK 30AMP , 240 VOLT WHICH I PURCHASED SEPARATELY. YOU DIDN'T READ WHAT I SAID!

BYE! ENJOY YOUR MB.

 

[Anonymous]

I looked at Tesla and at nearly twice the price it just wasn't what I wanted, even if it had a lower price premium, I can't see carrying around that much weight and I did not want a conventional car look either. I might have sprung for the model X SUV, it is more to my liking, but again way to heavy and high priced.

<begin sarcasm>
I looked at the BMW i3 and at nearly twice the price of my Smart ED, it just wasn't what I wanted, even if it was cheaper, I could't see carrying around 500 more Kg and two extra seats and certainly not an optional gas engine. I might spring for the BMW i8 which is more to my liking, but it is too fast and highly priced.
<.s>

Seriously tho, the fact the Tesla or Mercedes B class ED are heavier than the BMW i3 is not a reason in my book to mark them down, rather, it's their far larger set of luxury, practicality (storage) and performance attributes which are compelling. The Tesla is in a class of it's own, and the constant bashing on this BMW oriented forum for reasons that defy logic makes me chuckle...

In truth, if the BMW i3 had been available in Canada 18 months ago when I bought my Smart electric car, it would have been on my short list to purchase. Then again, I was looking for something very specific, and found it.

Cudo's on your purchase and ownership of the fantastic BMW i3.

Just be aware that limitations such as the less capable BMW i3 L2 AC charger compared to the equally priced competition of the Mercedes B class ED is a real and factual difference in the usability of these two vehicles.