CHADEMO adapter for i3?

[jasleinstein]

I live in Washington state and recently had to suffer thru lack of public charging for our i3. There are no DC fast charging stations for i3 in the state. In the recent BMW, VW Charge Now announcement the group is committed to build just under one hundred CCS chargers from Portland down to Sand Deigo. First that number is a drop in the bucket for California, who has the most CCS chargers I think, and Oregon but leaves out Washington that is home to only 12,000 EVs but is growing quickly.

Of the J-1772 stations we visited more than half were out of service. Nearly all of the charging stations were next to CHADEMO chargers that seemed to be working fine. After finding a J-1772 station that would take three hours to charge 1/3 of the batteries, several Leafs, came, charged, and Leafed.
I assume other i3 owners are having the same issues in your states?

Tesla now sells a CHADEMO adapter for Model S.

I would like to encourage BMW to build, or encourage a third party to build a CHADEMO adapter. Without fast charging this little jewel will be relegated to the neighborhood for us.
Nothing on a Tesla is cheap and the adapter sells for $450. Because of the lower power requirement surely one can be made for much less.
any thoughts? thanks jim

 

[jadnashuanh]

While possible, it's not particularly easy. The control protocol is totally different, so you'd need either support in the car (not likely), or a quite smart, self-powered computer to translate, and just the two plugs themselves, are not inexpensive.

 

[jasleinstein]

jadnashuanh,

I thought about that. Tesla got the chademo adapter working fairly quickly but they are %100 j-1772 compliant and they really understand software. In talking to a colleague at Schneider he tells me BMW had trouble with the protocol to start with and it's obvious they struggle with software. Not unlike A/V vendors struggled with HDMi for the first several years.
While there is still allot of conversation world wide CCS vs chadmeo, it seems BMW can't really deliver on either in many states.
thanks for the post

 

[jadnashuanh]

CHademo essentially uses two CANBUS (similar to Ethernet) busses to communicate between the car and the dc charger device. To keep things more compact, and allow a single plug design, the SAE implementation uses two of the signal lines normally used for the EVSE to superimpose the signal on the pins. Different protocol, different connector, significant risk if something goes wrong - lots of heavy current moving around. Tesla's control lines are already similar to those used on Chademo for their DC charging (as far as I can tell) and uses a different plug, so converting is easier and also in their interest. Hopefully, with the adoption of J1772 and the CCS standards by so many potentially heavy hitters (the potential for a much larger volume of users), and the adoption by some to make the dual-use dc units, it will become a mute point in a few years. So, it comes down to installing two plugs, support two protocols, or join the group and use one plug that is both smaller and easier to use. IMHO, DC fast charging is nice, but there are NO units within range of my i3, and I still bought it knowing that. Essentially the same thing for Chademo, so to me, it wouldn't make much difference, neither is available, so the choice is somewhat irrelevant. Unfortunately, that's true in much of the USA.

Realistically, there are only a few places in the USA (mainly CA) where there existed a fledgling Chademo network. So, most of the rest of the country is starting from scratch. I do not believe it will be many years before the CCS standard eclipses the volume of Chademo. Certainly, BMW can do it...they deliver the i3 in Japan with it.

FWIW, the interface protocols and signaling levels of J1772 are identical to that sold in Europe, so the only real difference is the plug installed. The J1772 standard does support multiple phases, as does the Euro design, but few places implement that (requires a couple of extra pins in the plug). It is primarily used by things like trucks or busses that were developed for EV use, and have huge battery packs that need to be recharged faster, but the plug has been designed to allow those pins.

 

[epirali]

Realistically, there are only a few places in the USA (mainly CA) where there existed a fledgling Chademo network. So, most of the rest of the country is starting from scratch. I do not believe it will be many years before the CCS standard eclipses the volume of Chademo. Certainly, BMW can do it...they deliver the i3 in Japan with it.

Well here in Maryland this is absolutely not the case. We have tons of Chademo stations everywhere, and only one (count'em one) SAE station. The only expansion I know of is that state of Maryland has made money available for 15 charging stations and they are dual standard. They won't be finished until Oct 2016.

So yes, in the future one day this may be great. But today in Maryland the fast charger is pointless.

And unlike Nissan, where dealers have fast charging I don't see any SAE fast charging at any BMW dealerships. This would seem to be an easy place to start of BMW was seriously looking at building an infrastructure.

To be fair reason I switched was not for fast charging, but the Rex makes the need for fast chargers almost non existent.

 

[jadnashuanh]

There's one Chademo unit within range of my car, and none at the Nissan dealership. Nissan and others have had over 3-years to work on their network, and no, not all of the dealerships have them.

It's not a simple decision to install one, it is NOT inexpensive, either for the device itself, or the infrastructure to install it. The same reason not all of the dealerships have bought into the i3 car loan program, they have not en mass opted for the CCS units...it has to make financial sense. A typical CCS installation is in the order of 25x more expensive than an EVSE, which will vary based on the power output and how much work has to be done to prep for it. Most places think twice about it...as the volume grows, and the demand increases, it will happen. Many of the CHademo devices can be retrofitted with a board to make them CCS compatible for not much money, and that is happening from what I hear. That conversion to dual-mode isn't anywhere near as dear as it's essentially just a protocol board and a new cable with some logic to switch (as most do not have enough power to charge both ports at the same time).

 

[spinball]

BMW has already announced ALL of their cars will come with a plug-in version (most being hybrid of course) by 2022. I imagine at some point between now and then BMW will require the NA dealer network to have at least one CCS charger.

 

[epirali]

BMW has already announced ALL of their cars will come with a plug-in version (most being hybrid of course) by 2022. I imagine at some point between now and then BMW will require the NA dealer network to have at least one CCS charger.

That is good news for you younger folks....some of us may not be around by then...

 

[spinball]

That is good news for you younger folks....some of us may not be around by then...

:lol:

I expect EV adoption to ramp up well before 2022, especially if the 200 mi range cars really do hit that sub-$40k point in the next 2 years. If that happens, the dealers will follow the money.

 

[Blue20]

BMW has already announced ALL of their cars will come with a plug-in version (most being hybrid of course) by 2022. I imagine at some point between now and then BMW will require the NA dealer network to have at least one CCS charger.

Hybrid plug-in probably won't have DCFC. - Small batteries, plus using gas as backup.

 

[Blue20]

... Many of the CHademo devices can be retrofitted with a board to make them CCS compatible for not much money, and that is happening from what I hear. That conversion to dual-mode isn't anywhere near as dear as it's essentially just a protocol board and a new cable with some logic to switch (as most do not have enough power to charge both ports at the same time).

Does this ever happen? I have only seen the other way round, dual-mode DCFC installed with CCS removed.

 

[jadnashuanh]

It's happening in Europe, and there's no reason why it can't or isn't happening here. Essentially, a DC fast charging system is a monster variable DC power supply, and a smart controller. The DC output can go where ever you want it to go as long as you have the logic to interface it properly with the car and the right cable.

Europe seems to have embraced EV's a bit better than the USA. Many cities have pollution zones in cities where EV's have a big advantage.

 

[TonyWilliams]

We have been asked this many times.

Both routes are expensive to develop:

1) native CHAdeMO on the BMW i3 with underhood mounted inlet

2) portable adaptor like Tesla produced

Somebody mentioned how "easy" it was for Tesla, and that's just not true. They spent two years working on it.

The real problem is that very, very few would pay for this product, which makes the price to the consumer VERY high.

Why don't we start with how much you would pay? Please don't reference a $450 adaptor from Tesla as the baseline... that is obviously heavily subsidized by the company to provide a service to the Tesla owners.

BMW won't do it for mostly political reasons (which is why they offer CHAdeMO in Japan, but not the USA and Europe).

So, how much?

 

[jasleinstein]

Tony,

I would be interested in purchasing an adapter. First I agree with you, I am sure Tesla worked hard to develop the adapter for the Tesla. But thats the point, they have worked hard to support customers. I am buying one as A: I am committed to Tesla and B: expect to need it at some time.
I am committed to BMW as much as they are committed to me. That amount is very low. We plan to sell the car as soon as the Tesla model 3 ships. And yes we know we will be lucky to get %25 of the cost of the car. However, with no CCS DC fast charging slated for Washington state, I want some insurance as the car charge is fine for local driving in the city, but not much beyond. Case in point, today I needed to drive 35 miles and back. It's hot and I'd need to use the A/C at least a bit. It is a marginal trip for the car, and there is a CHADemo charger near the far end of the trip.
If I were BMW I'd pay you folks to build the product, or at least subsidize it. For $500 i'd buy for sure. at $600 its most likely as I see it as a 2 yr, plus insurance policy. I rationalize the price as it is close to the CC HCS-40 charger we bought of the car.
Do you have any handle on what volume you could deliver at what price? Is $600 even doable say at 50 or so devices? I know that is a small number.

thanks

jim

 

[Jeffj]

I'd probably pony up $750 for a ChaDeMo adapter. More than that and I think its better to wait on the CCS rollout.

I also think this is going to be very regional. In CA and along the East Coast corridor, its probably not worth getting. But if you live in an area with no CCS or very slow rollout, there will be a much higher interest. But since the majority of i3's are in CA and along the East Coast (and Atlanta), I'm guessing the low volume of interest will make this prohibitive to produce.

 

[jadnashuanh]

Outside of some select areas in the USA, there are few to none CCS or CHADeMo units, so the market really isn't great.

To work, this is NOT just a simple mechanical adapter, it will require some computing capability and a way to power itself. The charging unit does not provide a 'power' line (only signal lines) until it senses it can safely apply the charging voltage. The i3's signal lines for CCS are superimposed on other lines, which also have to be emulated. The CHADeMo side needs a full-duplex CANBUS (similar to Ethernet) interface. THen, you have the protocols of each that have to be dealt with, and the significant power issues, and potential delays in the translations between them.

Yes, it could be done, but the first big question is, is there a market big enough to test, validate, and build it? Then, would people be willing to carry around a significant hunk - neither connector is small or inexpensive, either. At small volumes, you won't get to spread the engineering or production costs across many units, and you do not have the benefits of economy of scale. This is a relatively low volume item with limited appeal at the (at least by me) anticipated price point.

When dealing with maybe as much as 50Kw of energy at a significant current level, I'd really want to ensure it was done well. Personally, given how I use my car, it would be a worthless purchase. I know that I'm not alone, so you can't go by the volume of sales. Nearly 400vdc also calls for some significant insulation and protection, making things bigger to prevent arching. Throw in that it would need to be waterproof, and it just gets more involved. This is not a trivial endeavor. At some point, if the market is there, someone will make one, but I do not think it is yet. If you try to compare this to the issue at Tesla...take into account that if your battery is depleted on one of those, a typical EVSE could take over 1/2 a day to recharge the vehicle. The public charging networks are not designed to feed a Tesla, even if you could top one off. Most of them are less than 30A, and to a Tesla, that's a tease! IOW, there's MUCH more reason for Tesla to support a CHADeMO adapter for their vehicles, and at 1.5-3x the price of the i3, more in it for them, as well.

 

[jasleinstein]

Jadnashunah,

I assume your tesla comment is in response to my mention. First I expect to keep our Model S and buy a model 3 as soon as I can, therefore I am happy to buy power accessories that I think I might use in both cars. We have have driven our S from Seattle to Thermal Ca and back thru death Valley and the california gold country, with not even a minor issue with super chargers. However there have been a few times we needed to top off the car or add tens of miles while staying at a hotel or such. We have actually used the 120 v plug while staying at a hotel in B.C. Because Chademo is well deployed I feel it is good insurance. I have to think about the adapter for the i3 as a two or three year use, but for the Teslas I look at it as a long term tool.
I tried to drive 35 miles out and back today. Its 90 degrees in Seattle so I had to use the A/C again. I found myself sitting at a charger to add ten r so miles just to get enough miles to safely get home. Three Leafs came and left while I sat,and worked in my car. ugh. It took me an extra two hours. I should have driven my pickup. It's pretty sad to feel the need to drive a $2,000 value 200 F150 Ford truck with 165,000 miles as it is more trustworthy to make a 70 mile trip.
I am not saying the work is trivial,, but allot of progress has been made in the hardware and firmware handling of communications protocols for embedded devices. The manufactures of robots have made huge progress in the use of DC voltages we used to think were high.
You may very well be right, the i3 market may not be large enough for these products. If so BMW is in real trouble in my mind.
With Leafs able to fast charge to quickly extend the current 60 mile or so car they can commute around towns easily. When the Model 3 Tesla ships, it is assumed it will have well over 150 mile range. That leave BMW in the likes of local neighborhood cute cars along with the volt and VW.

 

[alohart]

I found myself sitting at a charger to add ten r so miles just to get enough miles to safely get home. Three Leafs came and left while I sat,and worked in my car. ugh. It took me an extra two hours.

Two hours to add 10 miles of range?! Something's wrong somewhere. That should have taken about 20 minutes.

Still, your point about the lack of SAE Combo chargers is valid and needs to be addressed. It's too bad that BMW won't install the CHAdeMO kit that it uses in Japanese i3's.

 

[jadnashuanh]

My point regarding Tesla and EVSE's, is that if your battery is depleted, a typical EVSE you'll find available in public is going to take you a VERY long time to replenish that battery. Superchargers are along major highways for the most part. Great if you aren't straying far from them along your path, useless if you do want to travel the road less traveled. In the interim, how do you charge? Tesla saw that there were Chademo units some places (one near me, about 1 mile away, but no others within reasonable range - your results may differ), and to fill their significant battery, chose to add that capability. Their interface logic is much closer to Chademo's than the SAE method, and it still ends up costing them a fair amount (my guess is that they subsidize it, and the actual cost is higher than they're charging, just like their cars). FWIW, from all reports, BMW is actually making money on each I-series it sells, unlike Tesla - it helps to be a billionaire to support your ideas.

In the real world, there are some areas that have had a few years head start on EV's. In the colder north, they, for some obvious reasons, have not been adopted as readily. So, the state of the charging networks varies radically across the country as local, state, and federal incentives and the volume of users varies. Many states have no incentives for either the charging infrastructure or buying an EV. SOme, like CA, offer both. This is also a reason why adoption is at differing rates across the country. WHat's true in one area is totally false in another.

As GM, Ford, BMW, MB, Porsche, Chrysler, VW have the potential for a much larger EV base, guess where the major future development on CCS units will be? Also, CHADEMO is not standard on all cars that offer it, and this year, BMW makes it standard on all i3's in the USA. Guess which connector is going to end up more popular?

Typical AMericans, we want everything now, but don't want to pay for it! We won't raise the gas taxes to help keep the roads and bridges intact, we expect the government to upgrade and add new things, but don't want our taxes raised. WHere there's a market for CCS units, they'll show up. The manufacturers will assist in that effort, it is in their interest. EV sales are still a very small portion of all cars sold. BMW has stated all of their models by 2020 will be available as plug-in hybrids. Other manufactures are going to have to follow to meet the CAFE requirements. Guess which standard is going to become more prevalent? Pioneers have to put up with this. Buy the vehicle if it meets your current needs, and if in the future, the capabilities expand, great. Don't knock it for what it is. It was designed as a commuter car in and around MegaCities and an average commute of 30-40 miles round trip with a buffer. For that task, it works quite well. As infrastructure expands, capabilities will as well.

 

[stumbledotcom]

WHere there's a market for CCS units, they'll show up.

The SF Bay Area experience supports this point. Deployment can happen relatively rapidly, too. A year ago there were zero CCS units in the region. Today, PlugShare shows 45 with new locations appearing weekly. Many are former CHAdeMO-only stations that have been converted. Yes, our state government helped create situation with EV-friendly policies such as the settlement that required the company that illegally manipulated the electricity market in 2000 to install a public charging infrastructure. Still change can happen quickly, particularly when government and enterprise work together.