CHADEMO adapter for i3?

[epirali]

WHere there's a market for CCS units, they'll show up.

The SF Bay Area experience supports this point. Deployment can happen relatively rapidly, too. A year ago there were zero CCS units in the region. Today, PlugShare shows 45 with new locations appearing weekly. Many are former CHAdeMO-only stations that have been converted. Yes, our state government helped create situation with EV-friendly policies such as the settlement that required the company that illegally manipulated the electricity market in 2000 to install a public charging infrastructure. Still change can happen quickly, particularly when government and enterprise work together.

I am keeping my fingers crossed here in Mid-Atlantic. I hope same happens. We have a large number of CHAdeMO, but only one CCS in entire Maryland area.

 

[jadnashuanh]

Product life cycles and development times each run on their own schedule. Keep in mind that the final decision on how to implement the dc fast charging option was finalized just before the i3 became available in the US (which may be one reason why it was later than elsewhere). This was from the standards committee, not an internal BMW thing. IT takes time to design, test, and build the interface boards, and that doesn't happen until you assess the market. Since it's barely been a year since the i3 became available in the USA, it's about time when products could start to become readily available. I know we all want these things yesterday, but...you are unlikely to assess, decide to build, and actually get a product out there until it is stable and you've assessed the market. BMW announced their, lower-cost, lower powered CCS unit early this year to overcome some of the issues with going full capacity...the cost for the infrastructure to install one. Even at that, it's not insignificant. Much easier to convert existing units to dual mode, but even that takes time and money. Just ask some of those from the UK how well many of those work! Better to have the kinks worked out before deployment.

 

[spinball]

Additional data point: Only one CCS in the entire state of WI. None in the Chicago area either. Not really been a problem for my REx and private garage, but definitely a short-term issue for BEVs.

 

[jadnashuanh]

Additional data point: Only one CCS in the entire state of WI. None in the Chicago area either. Not really been a problem for my REx and private garage, but definitely a short-term issue for BEVs.

Whether it's an issue for anyone is how they use their vehicle. I've lived quite well without any CCS unit. YEs, if one were available conveniently to me, I might be inclined to go further afield, but I find my ICE more comfortable if I'm going to be pushing the max range on my BEV. Not that the i3 is uncomfortable, but the ICE is more so, at least for me. As a result, I would not be in the market for a CHADEMO-CCS conversion adapter. I do not think that I'm the only one, thus limiting the market. In another year or so, this may become a mute point. In Europe, they've declared all new ones installed after a certain date (soon, if I remember) must be CCS, and are allowed to have dual-mode ones to support CHADEMO, if they desire.

 

[spinball]

Whether it's an issue for anyone is how they use their vehicle.

True. It would have been quite a major issue for me now that the i3 is my only vehicle. I sold my ICE and am not counting my wife's car.

 

[Blue20]

.... In another year or so, this may become a mute point. ....

With BMW North America's (lack of) support on CCS DCFC, I am not so sure. When I got my i3 one year ago, my dealer was saying they will have a DC fast charger "very soon". Today's answer is still "very soon".

 

[jadnashuanh]

As VW rolls out their eGolf, Chevy brings out their next generation Volt, MB starts to distribute their B-car in more than a few select states, and other EVs start to become available for sale that use the CCS units, things will change. Volume drives the demand, whether it is the manufacturer that provides the impetus, or the market opens up an opportunity. Around where I live, few of the Nissan dealers have CHADeMo units installed, and they've been selling those now for over three years.

I asked my dealer, and they said they looked into it and it was many ten's of thousands of dollars just to provide the needed power, not counting the cost of the unit itself. Where their nearest transformer is, they'd have to run a LONG new supply, and the wire itself is a lot of money, not counting the new connection to the transformer and the upgrades required to their facility power system. As opposed to providing multiple EVSE's, which is relatively cheap. Many facilities do NOT have the required voltage and current available, and upgrading the utility transformer, if even possible, is not cheap.

 

[jasleinstein]

stumbledotcom

I'll trade you water for CCS chargers. My state has plenty of water, no CCS chargers, Ca has CCS chargers, almost no water. Seems fare.

jim

 

[jasleinstein]

I agree with Jim D's point. the local J-1772 chargers are not important. planting a 220v charger at a drug store to charge EVs does little good.
Running a 480 v circuit for any AC to DC charing station is serious business. I got stuck at a eVgo station yesterday as I wandered to far away from home. I sat for two hours trying to get a few miles charge to get me home and watched three leafs come and leaf. The shopping center gave free charing as a new thing, but I called eVgo as it seems it is the only charging service we aren't members of. While on the phone with the nice call center rep I asked if he saw any CCS chargers planned for Washington. It's clear the eVgo chargers can support CCS and CHAdemo. He replied yes he saw four planned, then told me, "wait, those four CCS adapters have been canceled."

Like Blue20 my dealer told me CCS chargers would be installed "soon" it is clearly not the case. Leaf's are out selling i3 by a landslide.I agree the market will drive adoption. As I see it BMW is one the losing end of the stick.

For this conversation I am interested in getting consumers to adopt EVs. Any EVs. For my wife and I, we are totally focused on the Tesla, as we enjoy the connect car experience, the direct vendor relationship, higher quality audio, not just EV driving and charging. For several reason's we can't wait to rid our selves of BMW,,,,, again.

I am in the tech and clean tech industry we are rightly accused of hyping BS and burning consumers. Confusing charging standards, broken charing stations and false claims of range by auto manufactures will keep consumers in gas cars. Until we can provide Joe consumer with trustworthy products and services, consumers are best served by gas pumps.

 

[Blue20]

As VW rolls out their eGolf, Chevy brings out their next generation Volt, MB starts to distribute their B-car in more than a few select states, and other EVs start to become available for sale that use the CCS units, things will change. Volume drives the demand, whether it is the manufacturer that provides the impetus, or the market opens up an opportunity. Around where I live, few of the Nissan dealers have CHADeMo units installed, and they've been selling those now for over three years.

I asked my dealer, and they said they looked into it and it was many ten's of thousands of dollars just to provide the needed power, not counting the cost of the unit itself. Where their nearest transformer is, they'd have to run a LONG new supply, and the wire itself is a lot of money, not counting the new connection to the transformer and the upgrades required to their facility power system. As opposed to providing multiple EVSE's, which is relatively cheap. Many facilities do NOT have the required voltage and current available, and upgrading the utility transformer, if even possible, is not cheap.

So in short, don't bet on BWM. MB and VW may help.

 

[Blue20]

Point taken on the cost to install CCS DCFC.

If CCS is too expensive for BMW dealer , then don't tell potential customers that they are planning to install, and one will be available "soon".

 

[jadnashuanh]

BMW IS working with states to install some CCS units as was reported in a press release maybe a month or so ago. They are requesting their dealers install them, but those, being private businesses, have the choice.

My point is that as more and more vehicles are sold that can use one (and keep in mind, the i3 is one of the first production ones that can), the market for them and the push to install them will increase. It's kind of narrow minded to point all of the 'blame' at BMW. Even if you look at Tesla's model...the first couple of years, there were very few super chargers open and functioning. I think you'll find that there are lots more CCS units around than SuperChargers, so it is all a matter of perspective. As the volume of cars sold increases with this capability, more and more will appear. With more EV's at a price point more people can afford them, they will start to become more mainstream, but are still a VERY small percentage of vehicles sold. Just how many resources should be directed to a few percentages of sales, especially on a car that is designed for commuting and around town use? The CCS unit only becomes useful on longer trips, and the car can do them, but that is not its primary design goal.

 

[WoodlandHills]

This is typical BMW i3 Program behavior:

1. Make a big announcement about a great new idea or plan
2. Ask the dealers what they think
3. Open new idea at one or two places in the area
4. Make excuses for why most dealers are not participating
5. Repeat as necessary

This is EXACTLY what happened with the ICE car program for long trips, the dealers hated the idea and the program is moribund. Try and find one in your area for a weekend drive......

 

[Blue20]

BMW IS working with states to install some CCS units as was reported in a press release maybe a month or so ago. They are requesting their dealers install them, but those, being private businesses, have the choice.

My point is that as more and more vehicles are sold that can use one (and keep in mind, the i3 is one of the first production ones that can), the market for them and the push to install them will increase. It's kind of narrow minded to point all of the 'blame' at BMW. Even if you look at Tesla's model...the first couple of years, there were very few super chargers open and functioning. I think you'll find that there are lots more CCS units around than SuperChargers, so it is all a matter of perspective. As the volume of cars sold increases with this capability, more and more will appear. With more EV's at a price point more people can afford them, they will start to become more mainstream, but are still a VERY small percentage of vehicles sold. Just how many resources should be directed to a few percentages of sales, especially on a car that is designed for commuting and around town use? The CCS unit only becomes useful on longer trips, and the car can do them, but that is not its primary design goal.

Surely there are more i3 than Kia EV soul.

http://insideevs.com/kia-charges-up-for-soul-ev-launch-in-washington-oregon/

 

[jadnashuanh]

How many YEARS have there been cars on the road that use CHADEMO (over 3)? Compare that to how many years cars that use CCS standard have been on the road (barely one)?

Now, look at the potential volume of cars based on the manufacturers involved that adhere to one or the other standard and are planning EVs. The potential market for CCS users with the combination of Ford, GM, VW, BMW, MB, Porsche, etc. is significantly deeper. Things don't happen immediately. I don't have the CHADEMO roll out numbers over the years, but I'd bet they weren't all that robust the first year vehicles began being sold. It took time, and where I live, there's almost none.

If you bought the i3 expecting CCS units to appear magically right away, you were deluded! That they will show up eventually, is highly likely, and if you didn't have that option (standard in the USA for 2015), you may wish you had it. IF it weren't for CA and the utility companies forcing their installation, there wouldn't be that many there...that pressure and volume of EVs doesn't exist across the USA. They'll come...the first years of the model T, you couldn't buy gasoline on every corner, either.

 

[Blue20]

How many YEARS have there been cars on the road that use CHADEMO (over 3)? Compare that to how many years cars that use CCS standard have been on the road (barely one)?

Now, look at the potential volume of cars based on the manufacturers involved that adhere to one or the other standard and are planning EVs. The potential market for CCS users with the combination of Ford, GM, VW, BMW, MB, Porsche, etc. is significantly deeper. Things don't happen immediately. I don't have the CHADEMO roll out numbers over the years, but I'd bet they weren't all that robust the first year vehicles began being sold. It took time, and where I live, there's almost none.

If you bought the i3 expecting CCS units to appear magically right away, you were deluded! That they will show up eventually, is highly likely, and if you didn't have that option (standard in the USA for 2015), you may wish you had it. IF it weren't for CA and the utility companies forcing their installation, there wouldn't be that many there...that pressure and volume of EVs doesn't exist across the USA. They'll come...the first years of the model T, you couldn't buy gasoline on every corner, either.

How does the age of the charging standard come into play with a car company's charging infrastructure roll out? 50kw is 50kw.

It is interesting to see that Kia has a better product support plan, just a few months into EV sale, than BMW, which always brag about their evolution from MiniE and ActiveE. So BMW never get any data on charging from those E programs?!

 

[i3atl]

It is interesting to see that Kia has a better product support plan, just a few months into EV sale, than BMW, which always brag about their evolution from MiniE and ActiveE. So BMW never get any data on charging from those E programs?!

They've often mentioned conclusions drawn from the trial cars, especially when justifying the sub-100 mile EPA range of the i3.

One side note - neither of the trial cars had DCFC capability.

 

[jadnashuanh]

How does the age of the charging standard come into play with a car company's charging infrastructure roll out? 50kw is 50kw.

Try playing a BluRay disk in a CD player...they're both 5.25" silver disks...they don't work. Try plugging a CHADEMO plug into a CCS unit, they don't fit, NOR do they have the same interlock or protocols to communicate between the charging station and the vehicle. Your statement 50Kw is 50Kw is way out of line. There's LOTS more to charging an EV with high voltage DC than just the power supply! Try plugging a USB micro connector into a full-sized one...those even have the same protocol, but they are not compatible...same with the CCS and CHADEMO.

The plug configuration and protocol on CCS charging was only finalized a bit before the i3 was released to the public. So, at the beginning, there were all of the parts people rushing to conform to that final spec, then, the people that make the CCS units had to have a vehicle or two to test with. And, there had to be a market for them. The i3 was one of the first vehicles sold with the CCS capability widespread across the USA, and then, not all of them had that option, limiting the market for CCS entrepreneurs to get involved . So, why would you expect the CCS units to be everywhere or the conversion controllers and cable sets, if even compatible with existing CHADEMO units to be designed and built. The only thing similar is the voltage and the power. Control circuits and connectors are critical components.