Test drove a BMW i3 REx, but...

[amcdonal86]

First post on the forums! After pondering buying an electric car, I test drove a 2014 BMW i3 REx at Carmax and I loved it! Of course, the one at Carmax was way overpriced, IMO, at almost $28k for 20k miles.

I love the i3 though--I love the instantaneous acceleration, the style of the car, the interior look, the roominess of the interior, and the driving dynamics. I also like that it is a RWD platform.

Seems like most of the ones I'm seeing on Cars.com are listed for about $17-18k with very low miles. In my opinion, I still think this is too high, and I wonder what actual sales prices are like. I realize that the MSRP of the car was $45k-55k.

Here's why I think the prices are too high:

1. 2014 and 2015 i3s are coming off lease now, there are a ton of used ones available (64 REx's) within 250 miles of my location
2. There just aren't that many people who want to buy electric vehicles yet. The infrastructure just isn't there, even in environmentally progressive areas like Northern Virginia where I live. Even for people who live in single family homes, the cost of a Level 2 EVSE is an investment that probably turns a lot of people off.
3. Probably most EV buyers are looking for the latest technology with the most range, so the 2014-2016 models are less desirable than the 2017 with the 94Ah battery, not to mention the competition...
4. There is a lot more competition from other manufacturers right now, and even new EVs compete with these used i3s in my opinion. Chevrolet Volt starts at $33k, and with a $7500 credit + local incentives, makes it even harder to justify the purchase of a used i3.

Overall, I just think the market is flooded with used BEVs that nobody is buying. Especially Fiat 500e's, which can be found all day long for $7500.

What do you guys think? Does it make more sense to buy a used 2014 i3, or to just lease a new i3?

 

[jadnashuanh]

This can get personal quickly...in my case, my i3 is over 3-years old, and has a bit over 9K miles on it...IOW, it has plenty of battery capacity for my needs. If I need to go further, and that isn't all that often, I use my ICE. But, for typical day-to-day use, the i3 is my normal transportation. With that in mind, a larger battery isn't a big deal. Many people end up buying the i3 with a REx, then never engage the thing, spending thousands more for a heavier car with lower acceleration, and more maintenance requirements.

When the electrician installed my EVSE, he mentioned that in (I think it was RI), any new home needs to be wired for installation of an EVSE. IMHO, it won't be too many years before NOT having one in your home will decrease it's desirability should you want to sell it. Depending on where your power panel is, it may not be a huge investment. There's more than a few people that don't drive theirs all that much that get by using the 120-vac one that comes with the car, especially if they have access to a unit at work, or nearby, or at places they shop, eat, or go for entertainment. I do like the idea of the i3 REx, but until it has a large enough motor to recharge the battery rather than usually being able to just maintain, and has a larger gas tank (more like the i8), a BEV won't be my only vehicle, nor will the currently designed Rex. A hybrid needs enough battery and motor to do my normal running around, and take me cross-country to anywhere, should I want to. I really do like the small footprint of the i3 as it's easy to get around, park, and I fit, plus, I like how it looks as well. The CFRP frame, the plastic body panels, and minimal maintenance means that I could easily keep it for a very long time without it falling apart or starting to look bad. I can't say that about any other car that I've owned.

All that is to say, if the used one meets your needs and has the options on it you want, I don't see that much in spending more for a new one whether you lease it or buy it. In the next 2-3 years, there will be LOTS more options. Solid state batteries may become able to be manufactured for a decent price, there's talk of rechargeable alkaline batteries that will likely be much less expensive, and the incremental innovations in battery tech and the infrastructure will keep getting better. Even with that, unless things change, my i3 will likely continue to serve my needs, making the depreciation just keep looking better and better.

 

[theothertom]

I crafted a long reply to the OP's questions but somehow it disappeared ! Let me summarize...

I went through the lease new vs buy used debate and in the end chose to lease new. I wasn't sure how an EV would work out for me and I didn't want to buy a relatively expensive used vehicle and take a big hit on depreciation when trying to sell it in a couple of years. Also, since they're so new, I didn't feel comfortable with my depreciation models. What I really wanted was a "long term test drive" and a lease was the way to go for me. Yes, in the end, that test drive will be an expensive one but I will be free to buy a more advanced car, or another ICE, or whatever. That freedom is worth something to me. Also, the technology is changing relatively quickly and I didn't know how that would affect the market or how I would feel about buying used and living with it when much better technology was available.
When I was doing my research and trying to buy used, I came to the conclusion that BMW is keeping prices artificially high. They probably do this on all their cars but I was able to delve into how the sale of i3's coming off lease works and believe me, the prices are controlled.
As a side note, I found several used car dealers that offer used i3's a "lower" prices but these cars are lemon law buy backs, mostly from California. There's probably nothing wrong with them but the titles are stamped lemon law and I was afraid resale would be an issue.

 

[amcdonal86]

Thanks for the responses. I think "artificially inflated" sums up very accurately my feeling on the used i3 prices. My question now is--how do they artificially inflate the prices?

 

[chrisbinsb]

We are looking an imminent purchase of 2014 i3rex and have had the same questions.

In our area (southern ca, north of LA) advertised prices seem to be in the 17-19 range for models without the dc fast charger and 21-24 for those with it. At least that's what I assume is making the difference as they otherwise are similarly equipped and of similar mileage.

What I don't know is what the dealer cost of these cars is, which would obviously tell us what's fair to pay and if they are keeping prices high. Google tells me that lease residuals were about 52% so a loaded $52,000 model would be about $27,000. But I don't how the government rebates worked into that or what sort discounts bmw was making on purchase prices at the time.

Obviously, the dealers are not paying 27k for these cars today.

Anyone have insight to add?

 

[theothertom]

Thanks for the responses. I think "artificially inflated" sums up very accurately my feeling on the used i3 prices. My question now is--how do they artificially inflate the prices?

Very few people buy a new i3 outright because the price is too high for what you get. So they lease them. This means the financial arm of BMW, called BMWFS, owns the car. BMWFS incentivizes their leases by offering an unrealistically high residual. That means at the end of the lease, the value of the car is less than the residual and if BMWFS sold at that true value, they'd loose money. So, at the end of the lease, BMWFS sends the car to a BMW auction. That's where the controlling part comes in.
BMWFS sets a min. bid at the auctions, which is relatively high. That way the prices are controlled.
I tried to buy a used i3 through a non BMW dealer who had access to the auctions. He shared the min. bid requirements and also his markup so that I could budget for a car. By the time he added his markup, the price was at or more than a used model at a BMW dealer. (By the way, a BMW dealer can buy a car that has been returned to their dealership from BMWFS without it going to auction. I don't know the details of those truncations, but I suspect it's favorable for the dealers.) So BMWFS min bid practice helps protect BMW dealers and non BMW dealers have a hard time competing. As I mentioned, BMWFS probably does this on all their cars, not just i3's, but it seems to be more of an issue with i3's because there's not that many of them, compared to say, a 3 series.

 

[brastic]

We did both. I bought a 2014 BEV for $17k. For my 40 mile commute to work and back, I still have 50% of the battery when I get home. There are a lot of 2014 and soon 2015 i3s coming off of lease right now. Since the 2014/5 i3s have 80 mile range and the 2017 have 120, my guess is that the prices on the 2014/5s will keep coming down. I would not be surprised if they drop to the $12k range by early 2018. With the 4 year warranty on my 2014s batteries, I have no worries about them. If all goes well and the 120Ah batteries from Samsung show up on the 2019 i3, I am planning on in 2020 or so to upgrade the batteries in my 2014 and double my range. Although I do not need to do that now. For my wife, she needed more range so we leased a 2017 BEV.

I would have no issue with leasing a REX. I did not want to own a REX, mainly because I did not want to deal with a gas engine in this car. Since I do not have range issues, having the gas engine was not a worry. Please they then to have a lot more issues than the BEV.

PS. That CarMax price is $10k too much. They buy and sell a lot of used cars and most lease returns keep their value more than electric cars. In the case of the i3, the person at CarMax did not do their homework.

 

[amcdonal86]

Sort of an unrelated topic, but could you guys fill me in on what the warranty is when buying a used i3? Do I get the balance of the original warranty (and if so what is it)? Is there a powertrain warranty or longer battery warranty?

 

[alohart]

Sort of an unrelated topic, but could you guys fill me in on what the warranty is when buying a used i3? Do I get the balance of the original warranty (and if so what is it)? Is there a powertrain warranty or longer battery warranty?

The balance of the original warranty would remain in effect. In the U.S., that would be 4 years/50,000 miles. The battery pack warranty is 8 years/100k miles during which its capacity is guaranteed to remain at least 70% of its new capacity.

 

[chrisbinsb]

Sort of an unrelated topic, but could you guys fill me in on what the warranty is when buying a used i3? Do I get the balance of the original warranty (and if so what is it)? Is there a powertrain warranty or longer battery warranty?

The balance of the original warranty would remain in effect. In the U.S., that would be 4 years/50,000 miles. The battery pack warranty is 8 years/100k miles during which its capacity is guaranteed to remain at least 70% of its new capacity.

Wouldn't affect a buyer in Virginia of course, but the battery warranty in California is 10 years/150,000 miles

 

[jadnashuanh]

There was discussion about not extending any remaining warranty to subsequent purchasers awhile ago, but I've not looked into it. YOu may want to double-check the current status. It used to be extended, I'm not sure it is any more. If buying from a dealership, it would be negotiable, I'd expect.

 

[Tattoogunman]

Where I am at in Texas (Dallas/Ft. Worth area), used i3's are going for something in the neighborhood of $17K to $19K or thereabouts (seen some a bit higher and some lower). I've been researching EVs for a while now and have even started up a website (still in development) and a Facebook group for them. Used prices are generally low on EVs when compared to their original sticker prices with the exception being Tesla (I will not have this devolve into a Tesla discussion and will therefore say no more). I've seen Fiat 500e (I currently have a gas version) for $7500 to $9000, Nissan Leafs anywhere from $6000 to $10000, and Volts for $14K to $20K or thereabouts. Generally, I would say most of them are at least half or more less than what their original prices were and I don't see that changing until they become more mainstream (maybe).

I'm probably about a year out from realistically being able to pick one up and am monitoring them to see how they continue to do. The new Leaf will be debuted next month and I'm curious as to how that is going to measure up to the current crop of EVs. I like the i3, but would probably lean more towards the new Bolt as I like funky hatch cars and it has a much better range. I'm also financially challenged, so it's going to end up being whichever car I can get the better deal on. Texas has apparently renewed our $2500 tax incentive for EVs and is set to kick in next year, so I'm going to be watching that as well. Personally, I think EV prices need to come way down for them to be adopted more than they already area - I think they are too expensive for most people new (used is another issue obviously).

 

[amcdonal86]

After test driving a Chevy Bolt, and sizing up the competition in the EV car market, I have come to the conclusion that used BMW i3 prices must be about to take a huge nose dive. Therefore, I'm going to be waiting probalby 3-4 more months and see how these things play out.

The competition for the i3, especially new i3s, is severely affected by the 2018 Nissan Leaf being revealed soon, the release of the Chevy Bolt, and other cheaper alternatives that provide the same (or more) range like the VW eGolf. Not to mention Tesla Model 3 deliveries are going to be starting next month. Certainly new i3 prices are going to be affected, and I'm sure this will trickle down to the used car pricing.

I still love the i3 and want one, but I also don't want to pay almost $20k for a used 2014 i3 if in 3 or 4 months it will be worth $12k.

What do you guys think??

 

[MikeS]

Not sure about the others but the Nissan Leaf is a very slow car compared to the i3.

 

[jadnashuanh]

Note sure about the 2018 Leaf, but the previous ones were not only 5-600# heavier, but had a significantly smaller motor in them. The new Bolt weighs more, but has a larger motor than the i3.