Solid State Battery Progress

[jadnashuanh]

Saw an article today discussing the progress on solid state batteries...both Toyota, who is working with Panasonic, and Samsung are saying that they expect to have them ready for limited production by 2025. Samsung claims nearly double the energy density. Toyota claims 10% degradation after 30-years. Now, if they can combine those two features, longevity and increased energy density, the end of the decade could be a major game changer. Here's hoping. I'm open to other solutions, maybe a breakthrough in sourcing hydrogen, but that may be longer still. I think that it's going to take a lot of excess green energy to make that a viable solution for scaled used.

Dyson, who stopped their car development program, still has a bunch of research on ss batteries that they'd like to license. Combine all of the features, and who knows...could be good.

 

[jadnashuanh]

MB recently announced they will be offering public busses with solid state batteries. So, the beginnings are here (almost!). Once they get some experience with them, it's likely that they will show up in more consumer applications. So, progress is being made.

 

[jadnashuanh]

One company, after nearly 10-years of development had a press release this week on the status of their entry into solid state batteries. They claim interest in including it in new vehicles as early as 2025. Also, VW has been working with another company, and claim they should have some in production vehicles by about the same time as well as BMW and some others. If EVs are to become prevalent, higher capacity, lower costs, and quicker recharge times will all be necessary. Some of these new developments seem to be moving towards that goal. One of the new ones claims about a 100% increase in energy density with less degradation during recharge along with a recharge to 80% in 15-minutes.

Now, if we can get enough fast recharging stations, that should make the transition to full EV easier on people. Right now, it's still easier to refuel than recharge, and the infrastructure has a long ways to go to compete.

 

[jadnashuanh]

Toyota is planning a prototype vehicle for 2021 with solid state batteries they claim can be recharged in 10-minutes. Now, we're getting somewhere! They don't think general production will happen before MY 2025, though. Now, where you'd be able to find a charging station that can handle that amount of power, I don't know!

Chicken and egg issue...until the infrastructure is in place, there won't be as much demand, and there's no demand for the vehicles without infrastructure.

I think it was BP that is working on a battery backed CCS system so that it would become easier to provide fast DC charging without having to do major powerline upgrades. Now, that still might not work for back-to-back, busy places, but if there were lots of them, no big need to wait. It will take time to recharge its battery, too before the next one could be recharged at speed. There's hope yet!

 

[eNate]

"Chicken and egg" is better suited to a technology such as hydrogen, where an owner is truly in a pickle if they don't have a nearby filling station.

At least with the Toyota battery technology, early adopters can charge at more leisurely rates while infrastructure is built out. More akin to the current 5G cellular roll-out.

 

[frictioncircle]

For those curious about solid-state batteries, here's a recent article from December 2020's Wired:

https://www.wired.com/story/quantumscape-solid-state-battery/

 

[jadnashuanh]

People have been working on Sodium-ion batteries for probably at least 10-years. Recently, a university demonstrated one that has 19% higher energy density than the best Lithium-ion ones out there. They need to do further testing to determine longevity and recharging rates, but sodium is like the sixth most common element on the earth, so lots more accessible, and not as expensive.

If they can figure out those items, and how to mass produce them, they may replace lithium-ion batteries in many items and should be quite a bit less expensive in the process. They may end up heavier, though, as sodium is higher on the atomic weight, but not sure of the relative quantities required to make up an actual battery.

 

[jadnashuanh]

Saw an article today about Nio, a Chinese vehicle manufacturer, that claims they will have a 150Kwhr solid state battery pack available in at least one of their vehicles starting in MY 2022, which is likely to be the first one for sale in the world. Toyota is also getting close, but probably won't beat Nio.

 

[eXodus]

while this is all good news - there is still little evidence that people need it

I hope that we get to that tipping point that enough people have EV experience that range is not the main discussion topic anymore.

Most people I know which got EVs that have enough range for their daily life - never talk about range anymore and that usually begins when you got a solid 100 miles and convenient charging.
The first what people ask me about my i3 - how far does it go? While for my car - what is the 0-60 or how are the seats?

Hope we get to that point soon where other features are equally important then range.

150kwh - in a car which drives 4miles per kwh - 600 miles. The average person (90% percentile) drives less then 50 miles a day.
That means 12 days of driving between charging - also means - you are lugging around a heavy battery without every using it to it's potential most of the time.

 

[jadnashuanh]

A larger battery should theoretically at least, last longer as it would go through fewer recharge cycles to cover the same miles. That assumes that the manufacturer has decent thermal management of them while charging and during use, though. Probably the big benefit of solid state batteries, though, is their rapid recharge capabilities.

The Mazda serial hybrid they're talking about coming available should be interesting. THey're planning to use a radial (aka Wankel) engine in it. Very few serial hybrids out there, but again, you'd be carrying around an engine you may rarely use (like in the REx). Hopefully, their implementation of it has more power to allow full operation under any circumstances while you still have fuel.

 

[eXodus]

The Rex implementation of BMW is mainly bad in the US due to compliance laws and has nothing to do with the technology. The euro version is much better. You can drive 90+ mph with the Rex on empty battery in Germany

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmCOdHZF91Q

And the batteries sold today - should last longer then people usually keep their vehicles.

 

[jadnashuanh]

Depending on the MY, you may have up to 38Hp available when your battery is essentially 'empty' (but BMW won't let that happen). The EV motor is 170Hp...you will not have full capabilities when running only on the REx. Will the vehicle go? Yes. On the level, as long as it can overcome drag, yes...try to climb a long grade or have good acceleration, not going to happen at that speed. The conversion of mechanical Hp to electrical Hp is still Hp, but there's some lost in the conversion, so you don't really have 38Hp to drive the wheels. A 38Hp engine is sort of a slug. Reminds me of a 2CV, except the i3 weighs more.

The i8's motor is significantly larger, and can maintain pretty much any legal speed, regardless of the battery SOC. Not enough is known how they are implementing the new Mazda.

 

[eXodus]

Depending on the MY, you may have up to 38Hp available when your battery is essentially 'empty' (but BMW won't let that happen). The EV motor is 170Hp...you will not have full capabilities when running only on the REx. Will the vehicle go? Yes. On the level, as long as it can overcome drag, yes...try to climb a long grade or have good acceleration, not going to happen at that speed. The conversion of mechanical Hp to electrical Hp is still Hp, but there's some lost in the conversion, so you don't really have 38Hp to drive the wheels. A 38Hp engine is sort of a slug. Reminds me of a 2CV, except the i3 weighs more.
The i8's motor is significantly larger, and can maintain pretty much any legal speed, regardless of the battery SOC. Not enough is known how they are implementing the new Mazda.

Ok I understand what you meant now. Still part of this issue could be solved with programming the Rex to actually recharge the battery, not only hold the charge. It is surprising how little energy you need to drive straight.

Here a little calculator: http://www.wallaceracing.com/Calculate%20HP%20For%20Speed.php
the i3 has a coefficient of .29 about 21 sqft frontal area - weight 3000

Only needs like 22hp to drive 70mph.