Gotta love these running costs...

[janner]

Leaf Battery reliability http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20150323005942/en/Nissan-LEAF-Battery-Reliably-Outperforms-Cynics-Critics

 

[I33t]

Leaf Battery reliability http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20150323005942/en/Nissan-LEAF-Battery-Reliably-Outperforms-Cynics-Critics

Got to laugh at that.

Five years on, Nissan reports 99.99% battery success rate across Europe

They didn't include Arizona in those stats? LOL.

So your battery reliability link should be called 'Nissan Cold climate battery reliability"

Where is the Nissan Hot climate battery reliability link. Is it 99.99% too?

 

[janner]

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1088715_nissan-leaf-likely-to-get-hot-weather-battery-in-next-year

 

[epirali]

Leaf Battery reliability http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20150323005942/en/Nissan-LEAF-Battery-Reliably-Outperforms-Cynics-Critics

Well that's not exactly an analysis piece, more PR. And it says failure, not capacity. You have to lose 5 bars before it is no longer "fit" and that is 40% loss of capacity.

Here is information about the lawsuit:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1099200_nissan-leaf-battery-capacity-lawsuit-court-approves-settlement

And this is a great technical read and data, a lot of people were collecting and analyzing the information:

http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Battery_Capacity_Loss

And I realize this is drawing this thread off topic, so I apologize. If anyone is interested about general LiIon battery capacity/degradation we can start another separate thread.

 

[janner]

Battery replacement was the only significant cost raised in the original post so I think a discussion here is quite appropriate.

Can you relate the Leaf experience to the i3?

 

[epirali]

Battery replacement was the only significant cost raised in the original post so I think a discussion here is quite appropriate.

Can you relate the Leaf experience to the i3?

Be happy to do so, anything in particular? I am assuming you mean in terms of this topic?

I can't give any solid data because I had the Leaf for 18 months, everything was under warranty, and I only had one heat pump failure (it was a relatively common issue, replaced under warranty). The only service really is the annual battery check, and there are no real consumables except tires, as like the i3 the regen breaking is what I used most of the time. Other reported not having to replace break pads for the entire time they had had their Leaf (early adopters). I am pretty sure this is the case with the i3 too as I spend most of the time slowing down and stopping without breaks. The low rolling resistance tires apparently wear out quicker then long life tires, but I had no issues in 20K miles and my tires were nowhere near ready to be replaced.

As for battery my Leaf was produced in Sep and I picked it up in October, so it didn't really have any time to sit in the sun in a dealer at full charge (as some people had). Those cars tended to show degraded capacity from the start. Nissan was changing chemistry constantly and they did so in later 2013. My car, at 20K, only showed capacity loss of 3-4%. But then again I am in Maryland, there is a limited amount of time in heat, and I NEVER left the car sitting in hot weather at full charge. In fact I would set the charging timer to finish charging to 80% or 100% charged right before I left, so battery would sit in 30-40% charge most of the time when unused. I miss this feature in the i3, I wish there was "departure time" charging option (not preconditioning). But then again the i3 does have active BMS.

The i3 I am leasing also has all included maintenance, so honestly in the two year lease it will cost me nothing (like everyone is reporting). I have seen the failures people are seeing in the i3, but it sounds pretty much early production year problems, covered under warranty.

I'll be happy to elaborate as needed.

 

[charginnfl]

Leaf Battery reliability http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20150323005942/en/Nissan-LEAF-Battery-Reliably-Outperforms-Cynics-Critics

Well that's not exactly an analysis piece, more PR. And it says failure, not capacity. You have to lose 5 bars before it is no longer "fit" and that is 40% loss of capacity.

It's actually 4 bars. Or, if your battery gets to a bit less than 70%.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=13192

 

[janner]

Epirali

Be happy to do so, anything in particular? I am assuming you mean in terms of this topic?

I meant in terms of battery life. I have a five year service package which came with the new car so I'm not worried about normal servicing costs.

The 2013 Leaf has an air-cooled Lithium Manganese Oxide battery of 24 kWhrs with a warranty of 8-years and 100,000 miles and the BMW has a liquid cooled and liquid warmed Lithium Manganese Cobalt Oxide battery of 21.6 kWhrs nominal and 18.8 kWhrs available with a battery warranty of 8-years and 62,000 miles. The new Leaf now has a Lithium Manganese Cobalt Oxide battery which is still air cooled.

As far as I'm able to find out the i3 Lithium Manganese Cobalt Oxide battery has about a 50% better life than the Lithium Manganese Oxide battery of the old Leaf.

Not sure if anyone else has any better data but the change in battery technology should help avoid the historical Leaf problem and would then lead you not to expect a catastrophic battery failure within the 100,000 miles that one of the posters stated.

Anything more you can add would be much appreciated.

 

[janner]

I agree that maintenance will be lower on an EV, but it still does exist. Currently the industry seems to be thinking roughly 30% lower maintenance. That may improve over time, but these are still mechanical beasts with tires, brakes, hydraulics, suspension, and myriad internal components that wear and will need service. The i3 has been far from "maintenance-free" in its first 15 months. A lot of that can be attributed to a completely new car introduction, but even after that, maintenance will still be required. I suspect (I don't have the data to back this up) that the maintenance visits in the first 3 years of an i3 aren't going to be substantially lower than a normal ICE. Everyone makes a big deal about no oil changes, but realistically that's maybe $150/year in an ICE, maybe even less. All the hysteria about lower maintenance is conveniently forgetting the massive increases in quality for the ICE cars in the last 15 years or so. Its rarely the engine or transmission that causes a maintenance visit in an ICE (why would an OEM offer up to 10 years or 100,000 miles drivetrain warranty if the engine/transmission was balky), at least in the first 5-7 years of life. If you eliminate that from an ICE, they are not really that different from an EV in terms of maintenance.

My five year service charges (not repairs) for an A-Class Mercedes petrol-engine, automatic - £2,939.24
My five year service charges on my i3 bought at purchase of car - £375.00

Compelling, I think.

 

[epirali]

Epirali

Be happy to do so, anything in particular? I am assuming you mean in terms of this topic?

I meant in terms of battery life. I have a five year service package which came with the new car so I'm not worried about normal servicing costs.

The 2013 Leaf has an air-cooled Lithium Manganese Oxide battery of 24 kWhrs with a warranty of 8-years and 100,000 miles and the BMW has a liquid cooled and liquid warmed Lithium Manganese Cobalt Oxide battery of 21.6 kWhrs nominal and 18.8 kWhrs available with a battery warranty of 8-years and 62,000 miles. The new Leaf now has a Lithium Manganese Cobalt Oxide battery which is still air cooled.

As far as I'm able to find out the i3 Lithium Manganese Cobalt Oxide battery has about a 50% better life than the Lithium Manganese Oxide battery of the old Leaf.

Not sure if anyone else has any better data but the change in battery technology should help avoid the historical Leaf problem and would then lead you not to expect a catastrophic battery failure within the 100,000 miles that one of the posters stated.

Anything more you can add would be much appreciated.

Honestly I have nothing more to add. As I said from the start I am in no way comparing the i3 battery to the Leaf. The data points from the very active Tesla Roadster show degradation that is perfectly in line with what battery technology, when not pushed, shows. But the i3 is still unknown, simply because there is no data. 19 KWHr out of 22 is 85% use range, a bit more aggressive than Tesla in range mode. And I have to say my experience so far is that the Tesla Roadster is much more aggressive in running the temperature management than the i3 has been. I have only heard the i3 fans kick on once during my ownership when charging. I have usually not heard any pumps either. The roadster on the other hand will run cooling pumps for an hour or so after each trip.

Does anyone know what the profile is for the temperature management? When does it kick on/off? What is the range the battery is kept at? I have found information about heating the battery to increase range, but I can't find any information about what the cooling profile is like. This link from someone well known here (!) has a lot of useful information from a prior trial experience:

http://insideevs.com/understanding-battery-capacity-loss-from-a-four-year-bmw-electric-trial-veteran/

I see the 100K mile battery warranty but for the life of me I can't find what the conditions are where a battery isn't performing "normally." What is acceptable capacity loss, anyone know?

 

[Jeffj]

I see the 100K mile battery warranty but for the life of me I can't find what the conditions are where a battery isn't performing "normally." What is acceptable capacity loss, anyone know?

Battery warranty in the US is 8 years, 100,000 miles (not km's). From what I've read, the warranty is for 70% of the nominal capacity (18.8 kWh nomimal, so capacity below 13.16 kWh). Below that before 8 years and you'll get a replacement battery.

There has been a lot of chatter on the facebook group about how BMW is managing the actual battery capacity. Virtually everyone that has accessed the service menu to read their battery capacity is seeing readings from 19.4 to 19.8 kWh when fully charged. Several people are reporting this capacity after more than 1 year of use. One person has reported a reading of 20.4 kWh. There is also a lot of anecdotal evidence that with the March update, BMW has tweaked the voltage numbers on the battery, raising the operating voltage a couple of millivolts and that is the reason people are seeing higher capacities following a software update.

I'm currently showing 19.6 capacity, with a battery temperature of 27C. Car has been sitting for 2 hours and is 100% charged, nearly 9 months old and 8,000 miles. So I can't say anything but that I'm pretty happy with the battery life so far.

 

[ecoangel]

The biggest problems with modern cars ICE and EVs is the increasing dependency on electronics which are susceptible to heat, vibration, contact corrosion, and sensor failures.

The exact same problems occur with aircraft which have far stricter maintenance regimes than automobiles. That's why Airbus use 7 different manufacturers for the 7x 186 chips that control the aircraft's flight systems.

My own experience with the relatively complex Audi A2 1.2 TDI is that the mechanicals are very reliable. The bodywork being 90% aluminium has not corrosion issues and the light weight (around 875kg) means brakes and suspension components and tyres last longer than heavier cars.

However, i have had sensor and switching failures over the 220,000 miles and 13 years of ownership. Most of these were with the electronically controlled gearbox - gearshift position sensors, oil quality sensors etc.

EVs are generally much heavier than ICE cars (greater suspension bush and component wear) and the i3 uses one heck of a lot of electrical connectors many of which are not as protected from the elements as they might have been - e.g: frunk water ingress, Motor bay underside exposure, etc.

As for part prices - the Nissan LEAF spares are hugely expensive c.f. Nissan ICE car parts.

With around 3.5% reduction in "fuel tank" capacity per year, if you need more than 60 miles range in winter batteries are an issue longer term.

The petrol v i3 servicing costs quoted earlier are not quite comparing apples with apples - you can buy a BMW MINI with the same deal on 3 years servicing. If you still have the i3 after 3 years you can bet BMW will charge at least £120/h labour.

 

[janner]

Ecoangel

It was five (5) year servicing that I quoted.

The i3 is lighter than many comparable ICE cars.

Any source for the reduction in battery capacity per year?

 

[JTM]

My five year service charges (not repairs) for an A-Class Mercedes petrol-engine, automatic - £2,939.24
My five year service charges on my i3 bought at purchase of car - £375.00

Compelling, I think.
/quote]

My five year service charges (not repairs) for a 2010 Subaru Forester X 2.5litre petrol automatic - AU$3,755.00
My five year service charges on my i3 (BEV) bought at purchase of the car - AU$849.00

Also compelling, but made more so if factoring in fuel
My five year petrol cost for the 120,000km travelled in my 2010 Subaru Forester X petrol automatic - AU$19,800
My projected five year electricity costs at off peak rate (21cents/kWh) and consumption of 0.14kWH/km - AU$3,528


More detail in Free Download from Apple iTunes/iBooks Store https://itunes.apple.com/au/book/supercharged-momentum/id814894431?mt=11

JTM

 

[S3RDP]

The biggest problems with modern cars ICE and EVs is the increasing dependency on electronics which are susceptible to heat, vibration, contact corrosion, and sensor failures.

My own experience with the relatively complex Audi A2 1.2 TDI is that the mechanicals are very reliable. The bodywork being 90% aluminium has not corrosion issues and the light weight (around 875kg) means brakes and suspension components and tyres last longer than heavier cars.

However, i have had sensor and switching failures over the 220,000 miles and 13 years of ownership. Most of these were with the electronically controlled gearbox - gearshift position sensors, oil quality sensors etc.

EVs are generally much heavier than ICE cars (greater suspension bush and component wear) and the i3 uses one heck of a lot of electrical connectors many of which are not as protected from the elements as they might have been - e.g: frunk water ingress, Motor bay underside exposure, etc.

As for part prices - the Nissan LEAF spares are hugely expensive c.f. Nissan ICE car parts.

With around 3.5% reduction in "fuel tank" capacity per year, if you need more than 60 miles range in winter batteries are an issue longer term.

The petrol v i3 servicing costs quoted earlier are not quite comparing apples with apples - you can buy a BMW MINI with the same deal on 3 years servicing. If you still have the i3 after 3 years you can bet BMW will charge at least £120/h labour.

ecoangel, great to hear of your experience of ownership of A2 - another car well ahead of it's time and whose clean styling still looks good. It is just a shame that Audi didn't pursue its aluminium contraction and ultimately replaced it with the A1, Polo clone. Lets hope that BMW are braver.

I have run 2 MINIs which have been incredibly cheap to own. The LTC servicing pack can be extended to 8 years and depreciation on my last (well spec'd) Cooper S averaged only £1,500 a year. I suspect for the i3 I may have to budget for fixing electronic gremlins once out of warranty which will go eat into the running cost savings - but just love the car.