Buyer's Remorse - Range Disappointments Continue

[jadnashuanh]

One of the things that is being updated in the next software release on the i3 is an improved algorithm to estimate the maximum range. Most people have found that the number shown is often not all that accurate in the cold. In my personal use, I've found that I can often drive 5-10 miles, and the estimate may only drop a mile or so, especially at the beginning of a trip. If you think of it as a gas fuel gauge, and you monitor your miles/Kw usage, you'll have a better indication of how far you can go until (and we'll have to see how well it actually works) you get the new software applied (probably when you get the recall to replace the KLE).

All batteries have a cold soak penalty, but the type used in the i3 is supposed to be better than most.

 

[elptex]

60 mile range in above-freezing means there is either something wrong with the car or you are not preconditioning/driving as efficiently as you think.

Even at -2C/28F outside temperature, I am able to get 70 mile range with the heater set to 20C/68F and going 60mph on the highway/motorway. My i3 is now 3 months old and right at 5k miles.

 

[Tomasz]

One of the i3 elders on the Facebook page compared the accuracy of the range bars to the accuracy of a sundial for telling time, and a % state-of-charge indicator to a digital watch. That’s just the perfect analogy.

We should get a HV battery % SOC indicator as a Board Computer option in the spring. (Some are already testing it.) I’ll have my BC set to that for a truer range estimate.

After driving a LEAF for over a year and now the i3 for two weeks I couldn't disagree more. Having a digital display saying 10% SOC is as useless as anything else. 10% SOC on the highway going 70mph is good for maybe 6 miles while it can last for up to 9 miles in city.

I actually like to see the GOM range going up while I slow down - it tells me the estimate based on my current driving style and SOC and that is what will get me to the next charger - I'll see how much I need to slow down to make it.

BTW in my experience i3's range estimator is much more accurate than Leaf's and so far in my 1000 miles or so in the car it has never been more off than by about 1 mile.

 

[Marki3]

60 mile range in above-freezing means there is either something wrong with the car or you are not preconditioning/driving as efficiently as you think.

Even at -2C/28F outside temperature, I am able to get 70 mile range with the heater set to 20C/68F and going 60mph on the highway/motorway. My i3 is now 3 months old and right at 5k miles.

I have 15 miles highway at 65 mph and 17 miles secondary roads at 60 mph. But lots of elevation change. 1500 ft climb/descent each way. I have been to work and back twice using no heat, staying at the speed limit and have arrived home with 3-4 miles remaining. My all trips consumption is 4.2 which is above average according to the app and my efficiency on those trips is in the 90% range with average recuperation of 62 mi/kWh. So, don't think I am too far off in how much better things could be. The climbing is obviously a hit on range but the temp drop seems more than expected. Doing the same trip in summer with AC on at 74, 70 mph on the highway portion and 60 mph on the secondary roads I was getting home with 20-25 miles remaining.

I have been waiting for my service adviser to get back to me with info on the software and KLE upgrade.

 

[i3atl]

How do you exit the hidden menu once accessed? does turning the car off then on get you out of the menu?

Yes.

 

[i3atl]

After driving a LEAF for over a year and now the i3 for two weeks I couldn't disagree more. Having a digital display saying 10% SOC is as useless as anything else.

I couldn't disagree more with you

The good thing is that we'll both be able to use our preferred method of gauging range once the update is out in the spring.

Despite all the bashing the GoM (on the Leaf and i3) receives, I'm pretty happy with how they both function, but neither of them can predict the future. When driving under consistent conditions, once they have time to adjust, they're relatively reliable if you don't need to stretch your range. I can see not needing a SoC gauge IF you rarely or never venture below 10% and especially 5% SoC.

 

[Tomasz]

I couldn't disagree more with you

The good thing is that we'll both be able to use our preferred method of gauging range once the update is out in the spring.

Despite all the bashing the GoM (on the Leaf and i3) receives, I'm pretty happy with how they both function, but neither of them can predict the future. When driving under consistent conditions, once they have time to adjust, they're relatively reliable if you don't need to stretch your range. I can see not needing a SoC gauge IF you rarely or never venture below 10% and especially 5% SoC.

But I do venture in that area a lot. As a matter of fact I do that at least twice a week. But my driving conditions on that route are pretty consistent so the GOM readings are very, very reliable.

 

[lencap]

JeffJ -

Thanks for the hidden menu tip. The battery max is 19.4 - seems reasonable, even though the car only has 500 miles on it.

I spoke with a BMW i certified expert today, explaining my issues in detail. I can't begin to tell you how angry I was at the end of the call. In a nutshell here's what I learned:

- BMW will soon announce to dealers that ALL i3s manufactured prior to September 2014 will have to have the KLE replaced. BMW will soon notify dealers of the timeframe and availability of parts. I asked if there was sufficient stock to handle all of the cars now on the road. I didn't get a straight answer, nor did I get any idea how the "recall" would work. No idea if it's going to be done geographically, by VIN number, etc. Also no idea of timeframe when this will begin. I asked for more clarity - forget it. Also seemed to me that BMW is taking some heat about this, he insisted it's not a recall, just a service update.

- The "BMW i specialist" isn't really a specialist. He has some information, but isn't able, or not willing, to answer detailed questions. When I told him that I was never informed that the cold weather range would fall by 25% or more, and if I had been told I may have opted for a ReX version, or decided not to buy the car, he replied that it's the dealer's responsibility to communicate "technical details" to buyers "on request"! That set me off - I told him that I've been a BMW owner for nearly 3 decades, having purchased 11 cars and 3 motorcycles, and have been a BMWCCA member for 25 years. Having a car that provides 55 miles of range when 80 is advertised as "typical" isn't a "technical detail" it's a material fact. He could care less.

- His reply to my "What does BMW plan to do about this" line of questions was always the same: "Unless we can confirm that there is a disparity between your car and our benchmarks for battery life, range and related information there is nothing we can do." When I asked him what should I do he said "that is a private matter between you and your dealer". That set me off again. My dealer told me that the local BMW i expert is on vacation for the rest of the year and as a courtesy he'll call me next Monday. OK, I can understand vacation and holiday time, but the dealer told me that he is the ONLY source of expert detailed information for BMW. I told this to the gentlemen from BMW during my phone call. His reply was amazing: "Go to another dealer for the diagnosis". I told him that I've purchased several cars from my local dealer and I have a long standing relationship with him. Why would I want to go to another dealer that doesn't know me? Furthermore, that dealership isn't likely to provide me a loaner car for an extended diagnosis of my car, nor is he easy to get to - he's 30+ miles away. If I still have battery problems isn't that a long way to travel? What if he can't help me and tells me to drive home? Do I have to wait 2 hours for the car to charge to get back home?

Even more amazing is that according to my dealer our region shares the same BMW i expert. If he's on vacation for my dealer he's on vacation for all of the dealers in my region, regardless of where they're located!

By this time I was pretty hot, but it got more ridiculous. Maybe you can go to "X" dealership. He named a dealership nearly 90 miles from me. "Are you serious or just being a jerk?" I asked him. "How should I get my car to a dealership 90 miles from me with a 55 mile range on my winter range battery, and no charging stations on the road?" He could care less.

My point? There is more useful information on this forum that BMW's own expert "i hotline". BMW seems totally unprepared as to the correct response to the cold weather range issue. The KLE problem is universal, regardless of ReX or BEV and will need to be addressed. There doesn't seem to be any answer to what to do, how to do it, or if there even is a problem.

Very discouraging, but more so because of the "attitude". The fact that I've owned a Leaf, have thousands of EV mile experience, and owned 3 Prius cars with over 100K miles combined didn't seem to matter to the BMW rep in any way. I was treated as a novice, or even worse, and made to feel like a fool for trying to suggest ways for BMW to handle this issue. I offered to be a "beta tester" if BMW wanted to try something different to address the problems, or if I could help in any way. I also identified myself as "active" on many car forums and would be happy to help provide information to a wider audience, and suggested that having a BMW rep on the forum would likely be very welcome. None of these ideas were welcome or even acknowledged. Very frustrating, and not at all what I expected from BMW.

Finally, I asked for a supervisor to speak with to see if I could get another perspective on this entire experience. The reply is priceless: "I am the supervisor".

My experience with Nissan was horrible, and I vowed to NEVER buy another Nissan product (I'm still fighting them about the added charges to my lease that have not been refunded nearly 1.5 years after it expired). I didn't think it could get worse, but I'm approaching that now with BMW and the i3. That would be a shame. I still love the cars - my wife drives a 2011 335d - a truly wonderful car, and despite everything I still want to find a way to make the i3 work better for me, but I'm running out of patience and find dealing with BMW very trying.

 

[i3MK]

JeffJ -

Thanks for the hidden menu tip. The battery max is 19.4 - seems reasonable, even though the car only has 500 miles on it.

I spoke with a BMW i certified expert today, explaining my issues in detail. I can't begin to tell you how angry I was at the end of the call. In a nutshell here's what I learned:

- BMW will soon announce to dealers that ALL i3s manufactured prior to September 2014 will have to have the KLE replaced. BMW will soon notify dealers of the timeframe and availability of parts. I asked if there was sufficient stock to handle all of the cars now on the road. I didn't get a straight answer, nor did I get any idea how the "recall" would work. No idea if it's going to be done geographically, by VIN number, etc. Also no idea of timeframe when this will begin. I asked for more clarity - forget it. Also seemed to me that BMW is taking some heat about this, he insisted it's not a recall, just a service update.

- The "BMW i specialist" isn't really a specialist. He has some information, but isn't able, or not willing, to answer detailed questions. When I told him that I was never informed that the cold weather range would fall by 25% or more, and if I had been told I may have opted for a ReX version, or decided not to buy the car, he replied that it's the dealer's responsibility to communicate "technical details" to buyers "on request"! That set me off - I told him that I've been a BMW owner for nearly 3 decades, having purchased 11 cars and 3 motorcycles, and have been a BMWCCA member for 25 years. Having a car that provides 55 miles of range when 80 is advertised as "typical" isn't a "technical detail" it's a material fact. He could care less.

- His reply to my "What does BMW plan to do about this" line of questions was always the same: "Unless we can confirm that there is a disparity between your car and our benchmarks for battery life, range and related information there is nothing we can do." When I asked him what should I do he said "that is a private matter between you and your dealer". That set me off again. My dealer told me that the local BMW i expert is on vacation for the rest of the year and as a courtesy he'll call me next Monday. OK, I can understand vacation and holiday time, but the dealer told me that he is the ONLY source of expert detailed information for BMW. I told this to the gentlemen from BMW during my phone call. His reply was amazing: "Go to another dealer for the diagnosis". I told him that I've purchased several cars from my local dealer and I have a long standing relationship with him. Why would I want to go to another dealer that doesn't know me? Furthermore, that dealership isn't likely to provide me a loaner car for an extended diagnosis of my car, nor is he easy to get to - he's 30+ miles away. If I still have battery problems isn't that a long way to travel? What if he can't help me and tells me to drive home? Do I have to wait 2 hours for the car to charge to get back home?

Even more amazing is that according to my dealer our region shares the same BMW i expert. If he's on vacation for my dealer he's on vacation for all of the dealers in my region, regardless of where they're located!

By this time I was pretty hot, but it got more ridiculous. Maybe you can go to "X" dealership. He named a dealership nearly 90 miles from me. "Are you serious or just being a jerk?" I asked him. "How should I get my car to a dealership 90 miles from me with a 55 mile range on my winter range battery, and no charging stations on the road?" He could care less.

My point? There is more useful information on this forum that BMW's own expert "i hotline". BMW seems totally unprepared as to the correct response to the cold weather range issue. The KLE problem is universal, regardless of ReX or BEV and will need to be addressed. There doesn't seem to be any answer to what to do, how to do it, or if there even is a problem.

Very discouraging, but more so because of the "attitude". The fact that I've owned a Leaf, have thousands of EV mile experience, and owned 3 Prius cars with over 100K miles combined didn't seem to matter to the BMW rep in any way. I was treated as a novice, or even worse, and made to feel like a fool for trying to suggest ways for BMW to handle this issue. I offered to be a "beta tester" if BMW wanted to try something different to address the problems, or if I could help in any way. I also identified myself as "active" on many car forums and would be happy to help provide information to a wider audience, and suggested that having a BMW rep on the forum would likely be very welcome. None of these ideas were welcome or even acknowledged. Very frustrating, and not at all what I expected from BMW.

Finally, I asked for a supervisor to speak with to see if I could get another perspective on this entire experience. The reply is priceless: "I am the supervisor".

My experience with Nissan was horrible, and I vowed to NEVER buy another Nissan product (I'm still fighting them about the added charges to my lease that have not been refunded nearly 1.5 years after it expired). I didn't think it could get worse, but I'm approaching that now with BMW and the i3. That would be a shame. I still love the cars - my wife drives a 2011 335d - a truly wonderful car, and despite everything I still want to find a way to make the i3 work better for me, but I'm running out of patience and find dealing with BMW very trying.

What a shocking way to treat a customer. Please make contact with your nearest television station. EV owners need to become more vocal if they are to get better resolutions when faced with this sort of crappy behaviour. They ought to be ashamed of themselves. (of course you shouldn't have to take this course of action to get resolution but what choice do you have? As a side benefit, you may also help out fellow owners with these issues too)

 

[WoodlandHills]

This is why EVs need stand alone dealerships: the ICE guys just don't get it......

 

[Tomasz]

- BMW will soon announce to dealers that ALL i3s manufactured prior to September 2014 will have to have the KLE replaced. BMW will soon notify dealers of the timeframe and availability of parts. I asked if there was sufficient stock to handle all of the cars now on the road. I didn't get a straight answer, nor did I get any idea how the "recall" would work. No idea if it's going to be done geographically, by VIN number, etc. Also no idea of timeframe when this will begin. I asked for more clarity - forget it. Also seemed to me that BMW is taking some heat about this, he insisted it's not a recall, just a service update.

My understanding on that issue is that it will be fixed at the first chance the dealer gets. Meaning that if you never complain it'll probably be fixed at your 1 year service check, if you do complain though they will fix it for you next time it's in house.

I spoke with my dealer before delivery and he said that without official BMW blessing he can't do anything before delivery but he is fully aware of the issue and is going to fix mine the first chance he gets (which may be as soon as tomorrow since mine is going in for CEL).

 

[Blue20]

This is why EVs need stand alone dealerships: the ICE guys just don't get it......

I don't think it has anything to do with ev vs ice. Even with ice car, that is the way to reply to customer .

 

[Blue20]

60 mile range in above-freezing means there is either something wrong with the car or you are not preconditioning/driving as efficiently as you think.

Even at -2C/28F outside temperature, I am able to get 70 mile range with the heater set to 20C/68F and going 60mph on the highway/motorway. My i3 is now 3 months old and right at 5k miles.

I have 15 miles highway at 65 mph and 17 miles secondary roads at 60 mph. But lots of elevation change. 1500 ft climb/descent each way. I have been to work and back twice using no heat, staying at the speed limit and have arrived home with 3-4 miles remaining. My all trips consumption is 4.2 which is above average according to the app and my efficiency on those trips is in the 90% range with average recuperation of 62 mi/kWh. So, don't think I am too far off in how much better things could be. The climbing is obviously a hit on range but the temp drop seems more than expected. Doing the same trip in summer with AC on at 74, 70 mph on the highway portion and 60 mph on the secondary roads I was getting home with 20-25 miles remaining.

I have been waiting for my service adviser to get back to me with info on the software and KLE upgrade.

My experience is the same. The day when I roam around in Vancouver, which has lots of slope, the efficiency won't be as good as when I am in Richmond and Delta, which are flat. The regeneration helps a bit, but with any conversion, there will be energy lost.

 

[MikeS]

60 mile range in above-freezing means there is either something wrong with the car or you are not preconditioning/driving as efficiently as you think.

Even at -2C/28F outside temperature, I am able to get 70 mile range with the heater set to 20C/68F and going 60mph on the highway/motorway. My i3 is now 3 months old and right at 5k miles.

I have 15 miles highway at 65 mph and 17 miles secondary roads at 60 mph. But lots of elevation change. 1500 ft climb/descent each way. I have been to work and back twice using no heat, staying at the speed limit and have arrived home with 3-4 miles remaining. My all trips consumption is 4.2 which is above average according to the app and my efficiency on those trips is in the 90% range with average recuperation of 62 mi/kWh. So, don't think I am too far off in how much better things could be. The climbing is obviously a hit on range but the temp drop seems more than expected. Doing the same trip in summer with AC on at 74, 70 mph on the highway portion and 60 mph on the secondary roads I was getting home with 20-25 miles remaining.

I have been waiting for my service adviser to get back to me with info on the software and KLE upgrade.

My experience is the same. The day when I roam around in Vancouver, which has lots of slope, the efficiency won't be as good as when I am in Richmond and Delta, which are flat. The regeneration helps a bit, but with any conversion, there will be energy lost.

Posted this in another thread, but as I’m trying to get an overall picture Im posting the info here as well/

I was getting less than 65 miles range.

The car has since been at the dealers where I m told they changed the KLE. The range did seem a little better but I’m still monitoring. Still struggling to get 75 miles range in eco pro with the ambient temp around 8 to 10 degs. Put it on charge last night and indicated range in comfort is now only 62!! (Please no responses about driving style and temp as I have read them all! I typically get efficiency in excess of 80% and my average mils/kwh shows 4.3!)

So I remain disappointed with the cars actual range. Now seems like I either have to take it back to the dealer again or water for spring and hope for some improvement. Seems strange to blame the weather so much considering how relatively mild it is in UK. Also frustrating when others ‘claim’ they are getting in excess of 75 miles in similar conditions.

Also notice that if I do a number of very short trips that i ‘loose’ lots of range. That is I can get in the car with an indicated range of say 50miles, drive for a mile, stop and when I get back in the car the range has dropped to 46. Drive another mile, stop, get back in 15 mins later and ind range now shows 42! After that, even if I take a long gentle drive the ‘lost’ range is never regained!!!

 

[Bunter]

You're not alone. I am getting between 10 and 20 % less indicated range than I was in March earlier in the year despite ambient temperatures being very similar. Rarely does the car show >65 miles range now whereas it was never below 70 when I first got it. It doesn't bother me particularly as I can still do 2 days commuting with the car in Eco Pro mode and I've not reported back to the dealer. Doing lots of short hops in cold weather does the same for me, I put it down to heat cycling the car and batteries.

Bill

 

[jadnashuanh]

Depending on how long the car sits, when you start it up again, it needs to rewarm or cool (depending on the season) things, and that in itself can make a bit hit on power used from the batteries. I have not tried to measure it while away from my EVSE, but in preconditioning, it can draw nearly 20A from the EVSE (it typically bounces between 12 and 20A until things are near ready, then it drops to maybe 5A). WHen driving further than a few miles, I've seen the range indication sit at the same value for nearly 10-miles, based on previous use verses shorter hops with stops in between.

 

[2349]

Being in southern California, my poor mileage was attributed to the batteries being cooled. However when the temperature dropped to daily temps of 75-85 the mileage didn't change. In ecopro+ I get 69 miles. That's with nothing else (no heat, AC, radio, lights, or screen) on and driving ~35-40 mph. When I start out every morning, each mile I drive the available mileage drops 3! The first bar drops in half after only 100 feet! This is my 3rd electric car from BMW and the mileage keeps getting worse! My Mini E was 95-110 miles, the Active E was ~90. If I had known I would only get 69, an i3 would not have been my choice. I would have thought that their production car would be the best!

 

[2349]

Lencap, have you looked at the hidden service menu to see what you actual battery capacity is? There is an option in there that tells you the capacity that your car is operating on. Here is a quick recap of how to get it (pulled from a file on the facebook page):

You'll want to look at option 13.08

If you capacity is below 18 kWh, then that explains a lot of your range issues. If you capacity is above 19, then there is something else going on. I believe 18.8 (don't quote me on that number) is the "nominal" number. There is a cutoff in the 17's that seemes to be the bottom of the range for a new car. I also understand that this is the metric that is used to determine whether your battery is still within the warranted capacity at the end of 8 years (70% of 18.8).

____________________________________________________

To enter the menu, hold down the trip meter button on the side of the instrument cluster screen for 10 seconds. From then on, pressing this button means "next" and holding down the button means "select".

To begin with you have only these options available:

1 Identification
1.01 Conv. Index (1/mls)
1.02 SWFL 1
1.03 VIN
1.04 HMI Version
2 System test
3 Start roller
10 Unlock

To unlock the following menus, you will need the VIN from 1.03 above. Add the last FOUR digits together (other BMW models require adding the last five digits) to get your unlock code. e.g if your VIN is L12345, your code is 2+3+4+5=14. If that doesn't work, try adding the last five digits.

11 Consumption
11.01 Consumption dist. (l/km)
11.02 Consumption time (l/h)

12 Range
12.01 Range consumption (l/100km)
12.02 Range (km)

13 Fuel Tank/Battery
13.01 tank left (ohm)
13.02 tank right
13.03 tank left (litres) - zero
13.04 tank right 7.9l
13.05 tank total
13.07 display value
13.07 tank phase. 1
13.08 Batt. Kapa. Max. 19.8 kWh (maximum designed battery capacity)
13.09 State of charge
13.10 Batt. Ladung (battery charge)
13.11 Batt. Anziege (battery meter indication)

14.01 O. Temp. Sensor
14.02 O. Temp. Raw data
14.03 coolant temp
14.04 oil temp
14.05 batterietemp

15.01 litre counter
15.02 time counter
15.03 distance counter
15.04 kWh-Zaehler ("kWh counter")

16.01 v CAN (km/h)
16.02 v Display (km/h)
16.03 Cruise Control (km/h)
16.04 Rev. Counter (1/min)

17 System Voltage
17.01 Ubatt (V)

18 Accoustics
19 DTC
20 Dimming LCD
20.01 LCD temp. Sensor (ADC)
20.02 LCD temperature (C)
20.03 Light sensor
20.04 LCD luminance

21 Dimming PWM
21.01 Dimming wheel
21.02 Display
21.03 Scales/pt. orange
21.04 Underfloor pointer
21.05 Status lights
21.06 Status lights blue

22 CBS (condition based service)
22.01 km/year short term (km)
22.02 service call status
22.03 Limit, time (Month)
22.04 Limit, distance (km)

23 Check
24 Correct. Factor (careful!)
25 software reset

13.08 gives my potential and that seems fine at 19.7kWh.
However, 13.09 gives the % which is at 90% right after charging (10% low)
13.10 gives ~17kWh.
Does this mean that my batteries are not completely charging? How normal is this?
Oh, and by the way, thanks for the coding system. It has been helpful.

 

[Bunter]

If anyone could give a step by step guide on accessing these codes I'd be really grateful, the instructions just don't quite seem enough for me ?

Thanks

Bill

 

[Jeffj]

you need your VIN to unlock the rest of the codes. Begin by holding down the button on the side of the control console for 10=15 seconds until a menu comes up. I think the car has to be on to do this.

once the menu show up, press the button quickly to show the next menu choice. Hold the button when its showing a menu choice to select that item. You can get your VIN by doing this (choice 3 on menu item 1). Write down the VIN (its only the last 7 digits of the VIN that is shown, btw). You add up the last 5 digits to get your unlock code. Mine is 28.

This is now where its gets clumsy. The only way to exit a menu choice that I've found is to turn the car off and on again.

With the VIN unlock code, get the main menu back again and go to choice 10. Select choice 10 by holding the button. It will then ask for the unlock code. Enter your code by repeatedly pressing the button until you get to your code value. Long press once you've entered your code value.

You'll then see an expanded menu (e.g. main choices of 1, 2, 3, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, etc)
To see your battery capacity, press the selector until choice 13 shows up and then long press. You'll then see the menu choice 13 sub-menu. Click through choices until you get to choice 8 (e.g. 13.08) and long press. It will show your max battery capacity.

Again, I don't know how to exit from a choice other than turning the car off and on. And then you have to re-enter the unlock code (menu choice 10) to get the expanded menu to show up again)