BMW R&D Boss - "...very hard to replace the batteries..."

[I33t]

When I ordered my i3 (Feb 2014) I specifically asked about battery replacement. I was told then that it would be very difficult as they were bonded into the chassis and that BMW were planning to offer enhanced trade ins after 3-5 Years for people wanting to upgrade to a new car, I did take that with a large pinch of salt.

Unfortunately it looks like you were spun a story. The battery is not bonded to the chassis. There have been several sources that show that the battery is maintainable. It consists of 8 modules and they can be removed and therefore replaced. Have a look at the Munro video starting at about 2:30 for a description of the battery and the advantages BMW created in their battery design.

http://www.forbes.com/video/3958851958001/

 

[nowtta60]

This isn’t really consistent with what else BMW are stating – that they will be recycling old battery packs into stationary storage applications. My take is that it will be a long time till anyone finds out. With an 8 year 100,000 mile warranty I’d wait at least 8 years to replace them unless I hit 100,000 miles early. Though a few people might hit that in the next couple of years! Given 30k+ miles some people are reporting.

I tend to keep cars unless I really have a change of needs or something (like an i3) tempts me. My previous car (which is still have) is an 04 X-Trail – so now 11 years old. Assume I replace the battery just after warranty has expired. On current 7% cost decline and 8% density increase in 2023 I’ll be able to get a new pack at just over ½ the current price, with a weight of only 118kg instead of 230kg.

That said - I think whatever you read about being “difficult to replace” is maybe referring to “upgrading” the cells not replacing them. I.e. you can swap out the cells for OEMs replacements and the battery management system will know how to deal with them. But stick some new chemistry in there and it will need to be re-programmed with some new max safe temp, SOC max, SOC Min, Max C charge, Max C discharge, Vmax, Vmin, parameters and how to balance the cells in its maintenance cycles. Nothing a third party EV specialist couldn’t deal with – assuming the BMS is flashable and/or the charge controllers can deal with the battery volatage/current requirements or request the right numbers from an external DC Rapid chargers. In my mind – having ½ the weight ½ the original price, or double the capacity at same as the original price gives some interesting parameters to work with. A 50kWh battery would mean using the REX about twice a year. That’s if previous trajectories remain constant. What if a new cell comes along that can take 100C charge rates (there’s been some demos). Effectively 5 minutes charge, then you are stuck with a CCS unit that’s only able to handle 50kW so you might want to upgrade that – if there’s been a rollout of 1Megawatt capable CCS units!! LOL. Currently there’s too many variables to predict 3 years out let alone 8.

As it’s such a long time away will just have to wait to see what options there are in a few years. Worst case should be a BMW OEM job for circa 10,000 dollar/pound/euros and anything down to half that if costs drop or less for 3rd party stuff with a company who knows what they are doing. At the moment I can list on one hand the number of companies I’d trust to do that in the UK! Maybe in 2023 I might have a choice of 3 local suppliers – but I doubt it.

 

[WoodlandHills]

Why would BMW want to sell you a battery upgrade instead of a new car?

Simple - failure to offer a battery upgrade would be totally at odds with the eco positioning of the BMWi products, so if BMW don't offer an upgrade in due course, they'll have to eat their PR words about recyclability and a purpose built eco friendly plant.

Seriously? You actually think that they care about all that crap? It's just advertising.......

 

[i3atl]

Why would BMW want to sell you a battery upgrade instead of a new car?

Exactly - they won't.

 

[nowtta60]

Tesla started out intending to make EV components (which none of the mfrs bought). I'd imagine if the i3 sells enough units they'd investigate this approach. They have done it for their relatively low volume roadster, so the i3 with 10,000 units sold already must be an attractive battery sales opportunity. Though I'd imagine they'll defer till the bell curve of people hitting end of warranty is high.

 

[WoodlandHills]

I can certainly see BMW selling and promoting replacement batteries, just not an "upgrade" that would compete with new car sales. I suspect that the costs of tooling up to produce improved battery packs that would fit an i3 would be substantial and would probably prevent anyone but the OEM from doing so. So I don't expect some third-party vendor from China to step in and meet the demand of a few thousand units a year.

 

[bm88]

My main issue is this will kill the re-sale value of the car.

By not committing to a price or even if it is even possible, BMW will be hurting residuals.

BMW will want to keep the residuals are high as possible as it is a key consideration when buying privately or as a company

 

[jadnashuanh]

Speculate all you want, but nobody will know for awhile, so I'd not really worry about it. If the i3 as currently sold didn't meet your real needs and you bought it expecting to be able to upgrade the battery packs, you probably made a bad decision. If they do offer a higher density pack in the future, then you'll have to decide if it's worth it to replace, or sell the car. Given the expected life time of the battery pack, who knows what other new enticing items or features might be available on a new one, or someone elses incarnation that really meets your fancy.

 

[Edman951]

http://bmwi.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1103289

 

[jelloslug]

My main issue is this will kill the re-sale value of the car.

By not committing to a price or even if it is even possible, BMW will be hurting residuals.

BMW will want to keep the residuals are high as possible as it is a key consideration when buying privately or as a company

The battery price is listed on any online BMW store and according to the BMW published service manual for the i3 the battery is held in with a series of 26 bolts around the perimeter. The procedure says to disconnect the main battery connector, the cooling lines, and the communication connector, then just unbolt the battery from the chassis. I really think the confusion is from the aluminum frame being bonded to the life module.

 

[jadnashuanh]

Replacing the battery case would be a major endeavor...but, the battery assemblies (not individual cells) are made to be replaced. Torqueing down the cover properly to ensure it is sealed just takes good workmanship and being able to follow instructions.

 

[alohart]

according to the BMW published service manual for the i3

Where can I buy this service manual?

 

[crossie]

according to the BMW published service manual for the i3

Where can I buy this service manual?

Google BMW i3 service manual... some helpful souls may have listed a link to the service manual sans payment.

 

[janner]

This is an interview with BMW i USA and discusses battery replacement and future upgrades. Very encouraging.

http://www.bmwblog.com/2015/04/03/interview-with-bmw-i-usa-on-the-i3-and-x5-hybrid/

 

[nowtta60]

People always talk about battery upgrade.
But its just like any other car and parts from models above it.
Take a 328 and a M3, upgrading the 328 to M3 is expensive, complicated.
Or upgrading EFI to direct injection from a new model. Almost not possible.
So why would it be any different with a EV?
Future tech is applied to new products, not for retrofit.

Like others said, companies want you to by the new one, not upgrade it. just like an iphone.

So why would it be any different with a EV?
Because in an i3 a set of battery cells is held in a frame that can be dropped by removing a few bolts, lowered onto a dolly, and then taken to one side where its quite easy to replace lithium ion battery cells with whatever tech happens to come along. Be that a direct OEM replcement 18.8kWh usable 22kWh actual, or a upgraded 30kWh pack etc.

For argument sake lets say solid state Sakti3 batteries at double the density and 1/4 the cost turn up in 2022, you could end up with a battery tray containing 50kWh for $3000. Shove that up your REX and you might decide to remove the extra weight of the oily bits. I would.

 

[WoodlandHills]

How would a battery maker get around BMW's patent on its battery and the shape of the cells? The OEM supplier is all tied up contractually and cannot compete with BMW or else lose the OEM deal. The design and shape of any cells or battery pack are the property of BMW, why would they permit anyone to compete against new car sales with an uprated battery? BMW will vigorously defend its intellectual property rights and patents in US, EU or any other country and without being able to do business in NA or the EU there is no business model. Battery upgrades are just a utopian dream and will never happen.......

 

[PhilH]

I'd be very surprised if BMW could patent Li-ion batteries or a battery shape. Cite patents?

 

[WoodlandHills]

It is the same reason that one cannot tool up and begin making copies of BMW engines that are cheaper and more powerful: BMW own the design, ditto with their battery packs. You can cast all the BBC Chevy blocks that you want and sell them for any price you want as long as GM gives you permission since it is their intellectual property. The same thing with Ford transmissions, as long as Ford gives permission you can build and sell AOD trannies from your own castings all day long...... As long as you have permission.
Why would proprietary components of an EV be any different? And do you really think that there is one single part on an i3 that is NOT covered by patent, copywrite or other intellectual property protection? Say what you will about BMW, but they are not that stupid!

Ferrari are able to prevent anyone from making replica cars shaped like their classics, they have won every single case they have brought to court, so why doesn't BMW own the shape of their battery tray and the modules that fit inside of it?

 

[jadnashuanh]

The individual cells fit into a larger assembly...it would not be all that hard to manufacture a bracket that fit into the assembly, and still used the case. Plus, BMW IS likely to come out with bigger battery (higher capacity) packs, and I seriously doubt it would be in their interest to change the main battery case assembly. They've already said they have some on the drawing boards and in the labs.

IOW, I do believe there will be upgraded battery packs, if not from BMW, then someone else. And, as the technology evolves, they are likely to be less expensive and higher capacity.

 

[Jeffj]

I'll remain skeptical (but oddly optimistic) that BMW will offer an upgraded battery pack for the i3 that they will make available. I think an aftermarket pack is more likely. BMW is in the business of selling new vehicles (or re-selling a recent model year vehicle coming off a lease). Selling upgrade packs directly will cut into their core business.

A few people I've seen have made the arguments that they can make money off of selling new packs and that they would be doing their dealers a favor as the dealers would get paid for the labor to replace a pack. I don't think either of those arguments hold water. The profits to be gained from selling a (total guess here) MSRP $5000 battery pack upgrade pale in comparison to the profits made from selling a MSRP $50000 car - which can be mass produced to further increase profit margin. The market for i3 battery pack upgrades might be measured in the low 1,000's in a few years. The market for selling new EV's will be measured in the 100,000's if not higher. There likely just isn't enough market or profit margin for BMW to sell these parts, not to mention the tangled warranty issues that might arise (if the new pack delivers significantly less range than advertised, is it the pack, or the 7-8 year old car and its systems that are at fault?). Once a car gets to be more than 6 or 7 years old, the manufacturers aren't really interested in keeping it going, its consumer interest that keeps old car running.

As for doing the dealers a favor, think again. Dealers are independent businesses that have a franchise agreement with an OEM. Dealers and automakers have an uneasy alliance, and neither really goes out of its way to help the other.