BMW i3 REx vs Tesla S 60kwh

[ultraturtle]

I just want to throw one dose-of-reality number into the mix: I live in CA (in Tiburon, in Marin County) and my cost of electricity is WAY more expensive than what you guys say it is in Georgia. Currently (no pun intended) I am paying 43.316¢ per marginal kWh. Our grid may be three times cleaner than yours, but it seems to be more than three times as expensive as yours.

My guess is that this makes it way harder for anyone in CA to justify the initial purchase cost premium of either the Tesla or the i3 (vs comparable ICE powered vehicles) on the basis of them costing less per mile to "fuel" than a comparable ICE powered car. I'll defer to you math whizzes to do an analysis of this please.

In any event, I personally am willing to pay the premium as the price of my own personal small contribution to stopping global warming. I'm just not sure how much of the rest of America is willing to join me on this.

Your situation may more comparable to mine than you think. Most folks charge their EVs during the off-peak hours of 11pm to 7am. Californians, please chime in here, but this document - http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_EV.pdf makes it appear that rates are as inexpensive as $0.099 summer, and $0.102 winter for the EV-A and EV-B, which would actually be less expensive than the electricity provider I use, which technically has an EV plan, but is not useable due to its extremely high peak and part-peak rates.

 

[ChrisC]

Most published tariffs are notoriously misleading, as they don't include a LOT of other "fees". The EV TOU rates that Georgia Power publishes are lowballed for sure. Realistic is 7 cents per kWh overnight, 15 cents most of the time, 30 cents during summer weekday afternoons. (Yep, pretty damn cheap!) So I imagine that those PGE/California rates might not be "real", or at least you have to pull your hair out scrutinizing them to do an apples to apples comparison.

 

[tiburonh]

I just want to throw one dose-of-reality number into the mix: I live in CA (in Tiburon, in Marin County) and my cost of electricity is WAY more expensive than what you guys say it is in Georgia. Currently (no pun intended) I am paying 43.316¢ per marginal kWh. Our grid may be three times cleaner than yours, but it seems to be more than three times as expensive as yours.

My guess is that this makes it way harder for anyone in CA to justify the initial purchase cost premium of either the Tesla or the i3 (vs comparable ICE powered vehicles) on the basis of them costing less per mile to "fuel" than a comparable ICE powered car. I'll defer to you math whizzes to do an analysis of this please.

In any event, I personally am willing to pay the premium as the price of my own personal small contribution to stopping global warming. I'm just not sure how much of the rest of America is willing to join me on this.

Your situation may more comparable to mine than you think. Most folks charge their EVs during the off-peak hours of 11pm to 7am. Californians, please chime in here, but this document - http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_EV.pdf makes it appear that rates are as inexpensive as $0.099 summer, and $0.102 winter for the EV-A and EV-B, which would actually be less expensive than the electricity provider I use, which technically has an EV plan, but is not useable due to its extremely high peak and part-peak rates.

WOW- Thanks for turning me on to this. I had no idea. PG&E (no surprise) really seems to try hard to hide the fact that, as mandated by the California Public Utilities Commission, they actually have a whole separate rate plan for people who have EV's. Thanks to you, I've been through all this now and have discovered, much to my delight, that having an EV will actually allow me to SAVE on my overall electric bill. By my rough calculations, the average monthly charge for my current (admittedly excessive!) electric consumption PLUS the charge for the additional electricity that I would use in charging the i3 for an average usage of 40 miles per day would result in an average total monthly electric bill that is about $100 per month less than my current bill!! So the total annual "fuel" cost savings to me with the i3 vs my current situation (driving an Audi q5 on premium fuel at 19mpg for 15K miles per year) will be around $5,000!!! ($1,200 savings in electricity and $3,800 savings by not having to buy any gasoline). Sign me up!

 

[ultraturtle]

tiburonh,

Before you get too excited, I suggest you scour the Tesla, Leaf, Volt, and PiP forums for the reality of the PG&E rates, or wait 'till a Californian posts here to set us straight. ChrisC is spot on. There always seems to be something that keeps the rate sheets from translating to your actual bill. The rate sheet itself is missing something - for instance, the difference between EV-A and EV-B is whether or not you invest a $100 fee plus $2,000 or more for installation of a separate meter, yet the rates are essentially the same.

 

[Artbishop]

Southern California Edison offers two EV plans. One combines your residential and EV use. The minimal cost period is from midnight to 6 PM at 9 cents per kWh. The second plan is a dedicated meter for the EV. The minimal cost period is from 9 PM to noon at 11 cents per kWh.

My contractor did a prelim look and suggests the separate meter as I run a swimming pool filter every day. I'm waiting to have the work done until I order the car and have a pickup day.

 

[NoMoreICE]

It's no comparison between a model s and an i3.
One's a big car the other is a small city car.
You can't compare a 7-series with a mini either. Just based on the fact they both have an ICE.

If you have any in-depth questions about either car, feel free to ask. Since last week I own both

@jfk:
I have a Tesla MS and I thinking of getting i3. I am in US and I did not get a chance to test drive yet. When switching between cars, do you feel a big difference?

 

[toolworker]

I just want to throw one dose-of-reality number into the mix: I live in CA (in Tiburon, in Marin County) and my cost of electricity is WAY more expensive than what you guys say it is in Georgia. Currently (no pun intended) I am paying 43.316¢ per marginal kWh. Our grid may be three times cleaner than yours, but it seems to be more than three times as expensive as yours.

Yes, PG&E's tiered rates have a huge jump at 130% of the "baseline allocation," because a state law limited the rates that could be charged at that level. So people who use a lot of electricity - such as EV owners - will see rates jump to a minimum of 27 to 29 cents/kWh, and sometimes a lot more depending on summer or winter, or time of use. The only way around is to pay for a dedicated EV meter which has its own upfront and carrying costs.

However, the law was revised. So beginning July 1, 2014, the lower tier rates will rise slightly, and the jump will be at 200% of baseline rather than 130%. This might help some EV owners (though it was aimed at helping all those voters in the Central Valley with air conditioning).

Back to the OT. I drove a Tesla with every intent of buying one. Two things changed my mind. First, it's a huge car. I don't want to struggle to fit it in my garage or in parking spots.

Second, it lacks a lot of the refinements that I want if I'm going to pay $70k+ for a car, like memory power seats (I wish the i3 had 'em), storage compartments in the door, center console, stuff like that.

It's a great car, and kudos to Tesla for pushing the technology to market. But their target is the buyer who wants the latest EV and values technology above luxury.

I think the i3 does a better job at justifying its price point than the Tesla does (aside from EV range, of course, which is a big part of the reason for the price difference), and will suck away a lot of Tesla customers because the i3 has a longer list of technologies.

 

[rogbmw]

Having just read this thread completely, I find it interesting. Yes, this is my first post here, but I have been driving BMW's for over 30 years, am a very active BMW CCA member for almost 25 years, currently own 2 BMWs, and a Tesla Model S regular 85 (not the performance version), and the wife's Honda Pilot. I have owned the Telsa for over 14 months, so can provide some "real world with long term time ownership" input.

Yes, the i3 and the Model S are both EV cars. They are both transportation, so I guess they can be compared. As someone in this thread posted, so is a Mini (my son's wife drives one, he drives a E30 325is and ownes an E30 M3) and a 7 seven series - both are transportation, and some would argue can be compared. But, in my view, they are like comparing apples to oranges.

Here are some "real world" observations I have based on 14 months of ownership of our Tesla.

I keep meticulous notes on my cars. Here is an actual cost comparison with my Tesla compared to my BMW 1M I sold to go into it.

-- The cost for energy consumption for my Tesla is 15% of what I was paying for in Gasoline for my BMW. This figure is based on actual driving, mpg-per-gallon of gas obtained, and miles-per-Kw of electricity.
-- I drive my Tesla every day - it is my daily car, and I average around 1000 miles a month. I do not drive it any differently than I drove the BMW 1M.
-- Yesterday we drove over 220 miles on a trip, and still had over 40 miles of charge left when we got home. This was driving with the A/C set on 70, the Radio on, and driving at a speed "somewhere close" to the posted speed limit (as Forest Gump said - that is all I am going to say about that )
-- Insurance costs are similar for our Model S and the BMW

Again, these facts are based on actual numbers collected over 14 months of Tesla ownership. I plan on owning the Tesla 10 years at least - this helps justify the cost of the car. It is very quick - my observed times is 0-60 in 5.0 seconds, and again I own a "regular" 85KW car, not the P85. I do not miss the 1M - I thought I would, but the quickness of the S and instant torque is something that is appreciated only with continued use and ownership in day-to-day driving. A short test drive does not do it justice.

Having said the above, I do think the i3 is a wonderful car. I would argue that a more accurate comparison for the i3 would be the Nissan Leaf! Similar size and range. My wife and I have discussed having the i3 as a second car when I can pry her out of her SUV. She loves the visibility out of her Honda Pilot, and the i3 offers similar great visibility.

I believe that out of all manufacturers, BMW "could" be poised to compete with Tesla with a non ICE car if they choose to do so.

So I would suggest not bashing the Tesla as it is different and challenging to the BMW. Competition is a good thing - plus, now the only thing I have to go into the gas station for is Coffee. The same can be true for the i3!

 

[buickanddeere]

As fossil fuel prices rise due to governments collecting more and more tax revenue. BEV's will appeal to drivers that just want to save $$$ instead of being an idealist.
Considering that 10's of thousands of electric cars will make less than no difference to the environment. In particular where fossil fuel provides the re-charge electricity. As motor vehicle pollution between a 1990's and later North American emissions and an BEV is about nil, why bother? Further more a few little pharts from the hundreds of volcanoes around the world out weighs motor vehicle and industrial pollution sources. Then there are termites, ruminants and fermenting swamps etc releasing methane. Plus Chinese coal power plants make "saving the planet with an electric car a mute point. It won't make one iota of difference driving a BEV or an emissions gasser to the world.
One of my current vehicle is about worn out.I just want a BEV with a backup gasser power supply to make it home if utility charging isn't an option for what ever reason. Instead of paying $600-$1000 a month on gasoline to drive to work and run kids everywhere. I would rather plug in to the utility and spend $100-$200 to cover the same distances. Even at those savings, break even is 3-5 years down the road on a cheaper gasser vehicle and a more $$$ BEV .
I don't even want anybody to know the vehicle is electric. I don't like hearing people brag, many others probably feel the same way.