Accident repairs

[bscurtis]

On the 2 July 2015 I had an accident. I inadvertently put my foot hard down on the i3REX accelerator and silently took off like a rocket into my garage door. The result was that lots of body panels were scratched and dented including the roof of the car.
I took the car to my local BMW dealer Sytner in Harold Wood where I bought it 31/3/15 for an estimate for repairs for my insurance company. They have had the car for over 4 weeks now and they have done absolutely nothing yet.
In addition repairs to the roof have to be done by a specialist company in England who they refer to simply as 'Thorns'.
After 4 weeks they have now given me a curtesy car, a manual 6 speed diesel mini cooper, not exactly a save the planet car.
I contacted BMW UK to complain and someone called Lee Bailey is on the case and says he will keep me informed by phone once a week. So it doesn't sound as if things are going to speed up much.
I'm now told my i3 will be taken to Thorns sometime! next week?
I love the car but be warned repairs are very specialist and so, it seems, can take months.

Bernie Curtis
Harold Wood
London
UK

 

[S3RDP]

Hi Bernie

I'm really sorry to hear of your misfortune. In have to say I have been more nervous at driving my i3 in and out of the garage than my PDK Porsche - the only other automatic that I have owned - because of the instant gearless acceleration with the BMW. The response from your insurers and paucity of repair workshops is rather worrying. I have read elsewhere on this forum that it has taken quite a long time to get replacement parts but it sounds as though this may be exacerbated by the lack of knowledge/skills to repair the carbon fibre structure/roof of the i3. I have never heard of "Thorns" but I hope that when they do start work on your car they know what they are about. Because of this risk I chose to take out a specific i3 policy with BMW Insurance (Allianz) in the hope that if I had an accident I would not fall into a void of ignorance. I hope things start to progress quickly for you. Please keep us posted.

 

[bscurtis]

I think the mysterious 'Thorns' will know what they are about. As far as I can make out they have two centres in UK one in England and one in Ireland and they specialise in carbon fibre repairs.I think the English one is in Doncaster.

I'll let you know how it transpires.
BC

 

[bscurtis]

It would appear that Thorns is actually BMW UK main distribution centre in the town of Thorne near Doncaster.

After being promised my car would go there last week I am now told it will go to another of their centres in Bracknell in Berkshire and then possible on to "Thorne" ?????

So far I have not been advised it has gone anywhere,as promised, so it is still sitting 400 yards away at Sytners Harold Wood where I purchased it and drove it back to for repairs.

It has been there for 6 weeks now and absolutely nothing has been done yet.

Bernie Curtis

 

[epirali]

It would appear that Thorns is actually BMW UK main distribution centre in the town of Thorne near Doncaster.

After being promised my car would go there last week I am now told it will go to another of their centres in Bracknell in Berkshire and then possible on to "Thorne" ?????

So far I have not been advised it has gone anywhere,as promised, so it is still sitting 400 yards away at Sytners Harold Wood where I purchased it and drove it back to for repairs.

It has been there for 6 weeks now and absolutely nothing has been done yet.

Bernie Curtis

Sorry to hear about the ongoing hassle. Are they offering you anything in compensation besides the loaner car? I don't know about UK rules as they cover warranty and right of use.

 

[bscurtis]

Nothing other than a car, Mini Cooper, to run around in so far.

BC

 

[i3atl]

Scratches can be repaired as easily as with any other car, but it sounds like the roof damage may be causing the delay.

How bad was the damage to the roof?

 

[bscurtis]

Roof was scratched and I was told if it was 2mm or more deep it would have to be replaced. I believe it was a bit more than 2mm but not much so they may need to replace it. However this does not explain why nothing at all has happened for six weeks?

BC

 

[i3atl]

Roof was scratched and I was told if it was 2mm or more deep it would have to be replaced. I believe it was a bit more than 2mm but not much so they may need to replace it. However this does not explain why nothing at all has happened for six weeks?

I agree, there's really no excuse for that type of delay.

 

[Ruffles]

Evidently, roof repair is a big deal. My original i3 had two 1/8" holes drilled in one of the A pillars (long, long, story). The end result was that BMW said the entire roof of the car had to be cut off and a new one bonded back on. The dealer that was going to do it was in the middle of replacing their first roof on another i3 that had gotten scratched. They said it was a huge repair that would take about 4 months and show up as accident damage on a title search. It took them 6 weeks just to get the parts for their current car. I ended up selling the car back to BMW and buying a 2015 i3.

 

[bscurtis]

Things just sound worse and worse but after 6 weeks I haven't had an estimate for the repairs. My car might even be written off by my insurers for all I know but BMW seem incapable of getting even an estimate done so that I can stop wondering whether my car will get repaired or not. No wonder it has taken months to replace a roof in the past by BMW who seem to have no sense of urgency and as for customer care, their not over the first hurdle .

BC

 

[bscurtis]

Yes but I have not even had an estimate for repairs so that I can sought things out with my Insurance Company.
Its all bad news so far.

BC

 

[epirali]

Evidently, roof repair is a big deal. My original i3 had two 1/8" holes drilled in one of the A pillars (long, long, story). The end result was that BMW said the entire roof of the car had to be cut off and a new one bonded back on. The dealer that was going to do it was in the middle of replacing their first roof on another i3 that had gotten scratched. They said it was a huge repair that would take about 4 months and show up as accident damage on a title search. It took them 6 weeks just to get the parts for their current car. I ended up selling the car back to BMW and buying a 2015 i3.

Suddenly I am very nervous about driving the car...its funny I have experience with cars that if you damage them they are pretty much totaled and unrepairable. And I understand the i3 is new and uses unique manufacturing. But this can't be the normal expected repair times for a car that may be sold in large quantities? It has to be temporary?

 

[bscurtis]

Lets hope for other peoples sake the roof repair problem is temporary and will get better as time goes on.
However I think that BMW must realise people have accidents that will inevitably damage the roof and it does not say much for BMW customer care. It's as if they are selling the cars to their customers for second testing.

BC

 

[WoodlandHills]

Imagine if you warped the skateboard that the CFRP cell sits on: do you think any frame shop would have the tooling to straighten it, or even the specifications to work to? Once the insurance companies digest the real-world costs of repair (or replacement) I expect rates to rise to reflect the increased costs to repair exotic materials. IIRC, we are already seeing this over at Ford with their aluminum F-150.

 

[bscurtis]

We know all this.
My problem is simple.
I need an estimate for repairs.
If the estimate comes to more than the car cost, bearing in mind I have Gap Insurance to make up the difference between market value and the amount I paid for the car, then they can simply write it off and I'll buy another car with the money.
If the cost of repair is low enough to make the job worth doing and if there wasn't this could not care less attitude I would at least be 6 weeks farther on the way to getting it done. I have contacted BMW UK and they don't seem to have any control over the people that need geeing up. What chance do I stand and where do I go from here.

Also cars don't need to have carbon fibre re enforced plastic panels to cost more than I paid and my insurers will accept cars valued up to £75,000 without increasing the premium.Thats more than double the price of my i3 REX.

However I am sure you are right, it will eventually be an argument for raising our premiums.

Surely Sytner, my local BMW shop, are capable of getting me an estimate for repairs in less than 6 weeks which is how long I have been waiting so far.

BC

 

[WoodlandHills]

I think that BMW are learning that actually training their staff to repair a CFRP structure is going to take more than a few hours of classroom training Composite structures are very, very difficult to repair: bonding has to be done under controlled conditions using the precise procedure specified. Inspection after the repair is also very complex and requires specialized expensive tooling and equipment to verify the integrity of the bond.

Somehow I do not think that that Bubba and the rest of the Bondo Boys down at the body shop will be sanitizing their workspace and cleaning up all the dust and overspray in readiness for CFRP repairs....... I wonder if they have built a Clean Room yet to house the autoclave and vacuum bagging equipment?

As far as getting an estimate, since yours is the very first i3 structure they have ever tried to repair, I assume that they haven't the foggiest idea how long it will take. As an example: how would they go about removing any scratches or blemishes from the unpainted CFRP that is visible? And how many hours should one estimate given that nobody in the body shop has ever done it?

 

[jadnashuanh]

Scratches deeper than a certain amount mean that the fibers have been severed, which is why replacement is required verses repair...the resin just holds them together so that they can do their job and makes things stiffer, but not necessarily all that much stronger. The roof assembly would come as one, complete unit, ready to bond to the chassis after you'd removed the old and cleaned the chassis up. The adhesive probably cures under UV, so no autoclave or vacuum to deal with. From the videos I've seen, if you need to repair the life module, you cut off any crushed or distorted portions, then using adhesives, bond new sections in place. For the life module, it won't rack and bend and need to be straightened...if it bent far enough, it would break. If not, it would spring back undamaged. It won't bend far, which is one characteristic of CFRP, but that can be engineered such that it can be very stiff or flexible (for some applications, they use this stuff as a spring). The key is recognizing damage. Too much, and the whole thing may be toast. The i3 is designed to crush sections to absorb energy, and stop damage further back into the chassis, which determines how much needs to be cut off and replaced.

In the USA, not all dealerships have dedicated the space, training, and materials to become certified to repair the CFRP components. Luckily, mine has, but I hope I never need to utilize their services!

It seems that at least in the USA, it takes a bit over a week to get a part if it is not already in the country. In the UK, with the shorter distances, it should be faster IF someone actually ordered them in the first place. On a large part like a roof panel, maybe a little longer as to ensure it arrived in good condition, it would need a decent package. AT least it is light.

 

[redbarn]

Scratches deeper than a certain amount mean that the fibers have been severed, which is why replacement is required verses repair...the resin just holds them together so that they can do their job and makes things stiffer, but not necessarily all that much stronger. The roof assembly would come as one, complete unit, ready to bond to the chassis after you'd removed the old and cleaned the chassis up. The adhesive probably cures under UV, so no autoclave or vacuum to deal with. From the videos I've seen, if you need to repair the life module, you cut off any crushed or distorted portions, then using adhesives, bond new sections in place. For the life module, it won't rack and bend and need to be straightened...if it bent far enough, it would break. If not, it would spring back undamaged. It won't bend far, which is one characteristic of CFRP, but that can be engineered such that it can be very stiff or flexible (for some applications, they use this stuff as a spring). The key is recognizing damage. Too much, and the whole thing may be toast. The i3 is designed to crush sections to absorb energy, and stop damage further back into the chassis, which determines how much needs to be cut off and replaced.

jadnashuanh is correct in his description of composite repairs.

I've now have over 25 years of working with composite materials in automotive applications (motor racing). Composites are actually easier to repair than alumininum and the repair usually ends up stronger than the original, albeit heavier.
For people schooled in the 20th century technologies of the average body shop, composite repair is a new way of working. I think it is an issue of training and installing different equipment to handle composites. As composite cars are scarce, I'm sure dealers are hesistant to dive in and invest in the different technology.

 

[stumbledotcom]

Regrettably I have nothing to add that might help the OP. It seems his situation is rooted in poor communication between the various BMW UK entities.

Thankfully, I don't have personal experience with repairs. But I did consider the process before getting my i3. One reason is that my E90 needed repairs after I was rear-ended in 2013. I was impressed that the SF BMW body shop was featuring its CFRP capabilities almost year before the i3/8 were released here.

Rather than continuing to propagate personal opinions and alarming rhetoric, how about words from knowledgeable sources? John Kelly a BMW NA product manager appeared on the July 21 Autoline After Hours podcast. Around the 9:00 mark he discusses i3's construction, how it differs from supercar implementation of carbon fiber, the repair process, and the 14-year history of CFRP in BMW vehicles.

https://youtu.be/MQD_Qf5NE-I?t=9m