AC Charger Inlet Types - swappable?

[jadnashuanh]

The availability of DC fast charging is market dependent. In the USA, it was optional the first (couple?) of years, but is now standard. Similar situations in other markets around the world. Don't know the current status around the world.

 

[nitramluap]

So the i3 can use a type1 DC charging system, but there is no type1 AC charging system installed?

No, you are missing my point and have misread the post. The current i3s in Australia all have Type 1 ports. Those with DC fast charging have the Type 1 Combo port (ie. CCS) - it's a Type 1 port with the two DC pins beneath it.

This new station in Cairns does not have any Type 1 CCS (Combo DC) chargers, only Type 2 CCS (Combo2 DC) chargers.

Because of the plug structure they are NOT compatible and no adapter will ever be available to swap between them (safety reasons) so EVERY SINGLE i3 sold in Australia WITH DC fast charging is NOT COMPATIBLE with this charge station... and my question is whether the Government will continue with Type 2 CCS DC fast chargers for the rest of the rollout.

Using a station with a Type 2 AC supply (usually these are sockets, not cables with plugs) is a simple matter of bringing your own cable to plug into it, so what type of AC port you have on the car (ie. Type 1 or Type 2) is irrelevant for AC charging (unless you want to take advantage of 3-phase AC).

There is a significant number of EV's that have type1, why would they block them out? Any i3 that didn't order the DC charge system won't be able to charge on those chargers. That's an insult to any EV owners that have already bought an EV with a type1 charge port..

Before you get your knickers in a twist, you need to realise that this doesn't affect drivers without DC fast charging in the slightest. I thought that was kind of obvious, especially to someone posting on an EV forum who should know about this stuff...

i3 owners without the DC fast charge option (seriously, why would you?) can use Type 1 or Type 2 EVSEs as long as they bring their own cable (which is standard practice in Europe/UK), so they can charge anywhere... via AC... slowly.... just like any i3 owner who also has the DC option.

But the form factor on which the DC fast charging option is based (ie. Type 1 or Type 2) DOES MATTER to all EV drivers and it makes absolutely NO SENSE to have both Type 1 and Type 2 combo chargers in competition. :roll:

And changing the charge port on the vehicle is an easy swap. I don't see too much of an outcry from current New Zealand i3 owners and BMW New Zealand is arranging the switchover. They have realised that the Type 2 (Mennekes) plug as a basis for the DC charging plug is the way forward, as well as the fact that the Type 2 plug gives the greatest benefit for AC charging.

Want to insist on keeping your Type 1 socket? Just buy an adapter... they're cheap.

 

[nitramluap]

The availability of DC fast charging is market dependent. In the USA, it was optional the first (couple?) of years, but is now standard. Similar situations in other markets around the world. Don't know the current status around the world.

It has been standard in Australia for the i3 since July last year.

 

[I33t]

i3 owners without the DC fast charge option (seriously, why would you?) can use Type 1 or Type 2 EVSEs as long as they bring their own cable (which is standard practice in Europe/UK), so they can charge anywhere... via AC... slowly.... just like any i3 owner who also has the DC option.

We ordered the optional Combo CCS in 2014, so we have it, but nowhere here to use it. Yet.

Most charger stations can be optioned with whatever charger system is required. Easier and cheaper to alter the charger functions than to expensively alter every vehicle.

Does the charging station offer a 32A charging circuit for the i3?

The charging system should cover existing vehicles and also have the future standard installed.

 

[nitramluap]

We ordered the optional Combo CCS in 2014, so we have it, but nowhere here to use it. Yet.

You clearly STILL don't understand the difference between the Type 1 CCS (Combo) charger and the Type 2 CCS (Combo2). Your i3 has the Type 1 CCS (Combo) option... which is all you can get (for now) in Australia.

Unless the plug above your two DC pins is a Type 2 (Mennekes) plug, you car might NEVER be compatible with ANY future DC fast charger if they continue - like Cairns - to use the Type 2 CCS standard and not the Type 1 CCS standard.

Perhaps this page might clear up your confusion:
https://www.nzta.govt.nz/planning-and-investment/planning/planning-for-electric-vehicles/national-guidance-for-public-electric-vehicle-charging-infrastructure/charging-point-connectors-and-socket-outlets/

There are TWO 'Combo' types, named based on the primary (AC) plug above the two DC pins.

Most charger stations can be optioned with whatever charger system is required. Easier and cheaper to alter the charger functions than to expensively alter every vehicle.

Again, you're missing the point of the importance of drawing a line in the sand and moving FORWARD with a single standard, particularly with the DC charging as no adapters exist (or will exist) to convert Type 1 CCS to Type 2 CCS.

It's also important to note that Tesla in Australia uses the Type 2 (Mennekes) plug on all their vehicles, ditching the silly Tesla Plug you see in the USA (precisely BECAUSE the Type 1 standard is woefully inadequate for a car with a moderate to long range).

Does the charging station offer a 32A charging circuit for the i3?

If you mean single phase limited to 7.4kW, yes... but as I've written several times... they ONLY have a Type 2 plug at the EVSE end. There are no cables with Type 1 plugs on the end at the first of these 'Super Highway' locations. So if you want to charge you'll need to bring your own Type 2 to Type 1 charging cable.

As these stations are designed for long journeys and quick charges, what matters is the DC component... not the AC EVSEs.

The smart move would be to follow Europe (and now New Zealand) and adopt Type 2... but it seems that we aren't that smart here.

 

[I33t]

I understand the difference between the Type 1 CCS (Combo) charger and the Type 2 CCS (Combo2) but as I mentioned, there are already vehicles on the road with Type 1 CCS. IMHO cutting those early adopters from the charging network is basically an insult. Not an issue for our own situation though.

It's all well to look forward but shouldn't trash the existing early adopters.

No adapters exist to convert a Type 2 to Type 1 CCS. The charger can have several options and could include both.

At the very least, the charger should offer a standard 32A charge option for any vehicle without a DC option.

 

[nitramluap]

IMHO cutting those early adopters from the charging network is basically an insult.

That's a bit melodramatic. Early adopters must realise that there are risks. I do. And having studied the subject thoroughly, it's a tiny risk which is easily fixed with a plug swap on the car.

It seriously is that simple. It's a piece of plastic with some pins in it. Remove old plug, put in new plug. Done.

In the case of the '94Ah' i3, it will involve connecting two extra AC phase wires so that it can take advantage of the three-phase AC charging, but the wires & charging equipment is already installed on these vehicles, even if they have the Type 1 (single phase) socket - it's quite a nice upgrade.

My car - and every other i3 in Australia currently with the DC fast charging option, including YOURS - has the Type 1 CCS Combo inlet and I'm not even slightly annoyed that it might have to change. Bring it on I say and the sooner the better.

However I will be annoyed if this country ends up with a hodgepodge of Type 1 CCS and Type 2 CCS chargers (with some places having one but not the other) just to please a tiny minority of whinging early adopters.

That's the price we pay for being early adopters. As a fellow early adopter, I'm unsympathetic.

It's all well to look forward but shouldn't trash the existing early adopters.

I think that's a slight over-exaggeration. That sort of response is exactly what holds us back in so many areas. Disappointing, but unsurprising.

The charger can have several options and could include both.

Certainly not with the Tritium Veefil units they're using for the Queensland roll out. Each has a CHAdeMO on one side and a CCS on the other. They won't offer TWO CCS plugs, I'll bet money on it. Heck, these units can't even supply power to the CHAdeMO at the same time as the CCS - it's one or the other.

At the very least, the charger should offer a standard 32A charge option for any vehicle without a DC option.

I think you mean 'the EVSE' not 'the charger'. The AC supply is with via an EVSE at these station and if you expect to use it into the future - if Type 2 is the standard like it appears in Cairns - you're going to need an adapter cable to convert the Type 2 to Type 1. There is no cable on site and no getting around this.

As I have replied to you before, it will only be single phase, with a max 32A current (7.4kW). Anyone with a Type 2 inlet just needs a Type 2 to Type 2 cable and if their car supports it, they'll get three phase AC (with a max of 22kW, 11kW in the case of the i3).

And once again... this network is being rolled out for people to use it while travelling up & down the east coast of Queensland. Charging at such slow single phase AC rates is kind of missing the point. What really matters is the DC charging.

However 'missing the point' seems to be the theme of most replies here.

 

[I33t]

Seems Queensland has made some errors with choosing a system then.

WA has already running an electric highway that will offer whatever charging requirement using Circontrol. Charges an i3 without having to alter the vehicle. Also has a suitable separate device nearby for any vehicle that does not comply with the three connections available on the Circontrol.

Basically, any electric vehicle from the past, present and future can charge on this highway.

and:

and info:

Supplied by e-station.com.au http://e-station.com.au/trio/

 

[alohart]

And changing the charge port on the vehicle is an easy swap. I don't see too much of an outcry from current New Zealand i3 owners and BMW New Zealand is arranging the switchover.

If BMW Australia does not perform this swap at no cost to the owner, you might be joining the outcry of your fellow countrymen when you learn how "proud" BMW is of the i3 charging port. Those U.S. i3 owners who have had to replace their charging ports due to damage have been shocked by the cost of plastic.

 

[nitramluap]

Seems Queensland has made some errors with choosing a system then.

Actually, no. Quite the opposite.

I've just received confirmation from a Government contact and BMW Australia contact: Australia is officially backing Type 2 and the associated Type 2 CCS (Combo2) from next year. Other states will follow so all your Type 1 CCS plugs at charging stations will be changed.

BMW is working out the logistics of the swap for existing owners. It will either be free in warranty or about $300 and expect an announcement by Government and manufacturers by November.

If you want to persist with Type 1 CCS you're free to do so but will only be able to charge with AC in the future when no Type 1 CCS Combo chargers are left. If that's all you need, then no problem.

Basically, any electric vehicle from the past, present and future can charge on this highway.

Is that a fact? From what I can see, no European EV with a Type 2 plug will be able to DC fast charge in the very near future as the standard is changing... and so will the charge ports on the car.

Anyway... I've got the official confirmation I needed. Feel free to pretend it's not happening. I'll be changing my charge port as soon as my nearby DC fast charger changes from Type 1 CCS to Type 2 CCS, which will be within six months I reckon.

I never thought EV owners would be so parochial. Ironic.

 

[nitramluap]

Those U.S. i3 owners who have had to replace their charging ports due to damage have been shocked by the cost of plastic.

Well, it's going to cost around $300 so hardly an issue... and quite possibly free for owners still in warranty (which is three years - is would cover almost all i3s in Australia).

And again, if you don't need DC fast charging and you only charge with your own AC EVSE at home, you can leave it as is.

I'll change the plug on my home EVSE to a Type 2 plug. Costs $50.

 

[I33t]

Basically, any electric vehicle from the past, present and future can charge on this highway.

Is that a fact? From what I can see, no European EV with a Type 2 plug will be able to DC fast charge in the very near future as the standard is changing... and so will the charge ports on the car.

The WA electric highway already exists, and it operates for current and existing EV's in that region.

Absolutely, if the connections change, then so will the evse connections.

The Queensland system already does not support all current EVs, even the one you already have. The WA system supports the current EV's actually on the road. It has three high rate connectors plus the lower speed charging system for the existing market.

 

[I33t]

I never thought EV owners would be so parochial. Ironic.

I'm not parochial, and not talking about our current location but viewing the current options around Australia.

WA electric highway is already in operation embraces all EV owners, but the upcoming Qld highway is expected yet to be commenced in 6 months and not support all current EV's. Now that's ironic.

Good luck for your type 2 upgrade, hope it all works out for you.

 

[nitramluap]

I never thought EV owners would be so parochial. Ironic.

I'm not parochial, and not talking about our current location but viewing the current options around Australia.

WA electric highway is already in operation embraces all EV owners, but the upcoming Qld highway is expected yet to be commenced in 6 months and not support all current EV's. Now that's ironic.

Good luck for your type 2 upgrade, hope it all works out for you.

Given that there really are hardly any EVs in this country, and few owned by 'normal people', the changeover going to have a very small impact. They're doing it in New Zealand and nobody is crying.

Far more important will be the infrastructure in place for people buying new vehicles when they only come with Type 2 based charging ports - my guess is that this will be from MY2018 or thereabouts. Just watch how quickly the Type 1 based charge plugs disappear from charge stations.

And again, anything less than DC 50kW - the absolute minimum required for the average punter to be even vaguely interested in an EV - is a waste of time for a 'Superhighway' charging network. Leave the low power EVSE stuff to shops, businesses and hotels where you want to spend more than 20 minutes.

Looking forward to the small crowd of whingers. I expect it won't even make the news. New owners will be wondering what all the fuss was about. I'll get my popcorn. Over and out.

 

[coho]

Long time lurker here, I'll throw my 2 cents in. I believe BMW would be pushing this change to happen as well. If you look at how many Tesla destination chargers are out there that will become accessible to vehicles with type 2 charging. At the moment Tesla have a great competitive edge on all other EV's in Australia due to their charge network. Type 2 charging is what any other EV auto maker here in Oz would want to negate the Tesla destination charger advantage.

 

[ReZe]

I was wondering if anyone ever had their inlet swapped? is it just Plug and Play?

I am trying to import a BMW i3 from USA to Europe (Denmark) and have tried to get an answer from a Danish BMW dealer. They don't seem to know for sure. They just say its not possible and the software is also different from US to EU version, so a lot of trouble would probably come at the future service centre...

I just don't really buy that conclusion. Why would BMW make a plug thats not replaceable. Its the same protocol for CCS Combo 1 and CCS Combo 2..

 

[nitramluap]

I was wondering if anyone ever had their inlet swapped? is it just Plug and Play?

I am trying to import a BMW i3 from USA to Europe (Denmark) and have tried to get an answer from a Danish BMW dealer. They don't seem to know for sure. They just say its not possible and the software is also different from US to EU version, so a lot of trouble would probably come at the future service centre...

I just don't really buy that conclusion. Why would BMW make a plug thats not replaceable. Its the same protocol for CCS Combo 1 and CCS Combo 2..

They are absolutely swappable... but most dealers are lazy and couldn't be bothered so they'll give you the 'It can't be done' as an excuse.

BMW New Zealand gave existing owners the option to swap their charge ports (including the CCS if they had it) from Type 1 to Type 2 when NZ officially went with the Type 2 plug standard and as far as I'm aware, it was a smooth process. Not sure about the cost.

I guess we need input from any NZ i3 owners who went through this process. Theoretically it's just a matter of swapping a few parts and, in the case of the 2017 i3 and newer, also connecting the second & third phases into the AC Type 2 port (thus allowing 11kW of three phase AC, instead of just 7.4kW single phase). It will require removing the rear quarter panel and other bits and pieces and probably a software tweak, but it should be an easy job. All communication protocols are identical.

 

[coho]

Theoretically it's just a matter of swapping a few parts and, in the case of the 2017 i3 and newer, also connecting the second & third phases into the AC Type 2 port (thus allowing 11kW of three phase AC, instead of just 7.4kW single phase). It will require removing the rear quarter panel and other bits and pieces and probably a software tweak, but it should be an easy job. All communication protocols are identical.

I hope the 2017 cars can be charged at 11kw by connecting the second and third phase on the existing charger... Is anyone from New Zealand with a 2017 that can confirm this? If so, I'll start chirping at my BMW in Oz to have the port changed right away

 

[sunday9pm]

I drive a 2015 BMW i3 fully electric. I stopped at the new Coolangatta EV charging station that is part of the new Queensland Electric Super Highway operated by DTMR and Yurika:
https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/projects/electricvehicles/super-highway

It seems previous posters are right in suggesting that CCS Type 2 is now the Australian standard, and thus I cannot use any of the new Queensland EV superhighway fast charging stations with my BMW i3 (unless I use my Type 2 Mennekes to Type 1 J1772 AC cable for a slow AC charge from the adjacent Schneider electric charge box). The CCS2 DC plug I’m trying to connect with is shown in this photo I took at the EV station Coolangatta, QLD:

I paid extra at the time I purchased my 2015 BMW i3 to have the DC fast charging option, but mine uses what’s called a CCS1 based on the J1772 plug. I contacted the BMW Australia Genius team, and received a quote from Brisbane BMW for a Type 1 to Type 2 retrofit conversion on 27 April 2018:

• AU$ 3,131.00 for RETROFITTING OF TYPE 2 ELECTRIC CHARGE EQUIPMENT AND PROGRAMMING OF VEHICLE AS REQUIRED
• AU$ 2,090.00 for SUPPLY OF WALLBOX PLUS HOME CHARGING UNIT (DOES NOT INCLUDE INSTALLATION)

Questions:
1. There were previous comments about BMW New Zealand offering this under warranty and/or for a small free of NZ$ 300 – can anyone confirm this is true?

2. I cannot find any official information from BMW Australia, and they have not responded directly, but just forwarded this to the Brisbane BMW dealership. Has anyone been able to receive official word from BMW Australia HQ?

3. I have been looking into buying a CCS2 to CCS1 DC adapter cable, so I can continue to use Type 1 and Type 2 AC and DC charging stations, but those adapteres are rare. The only one I found is US$1,800 from China on alibaba:
Product model: SET-S3-S4
http://www.setec-power.com/china/ccs2-to-ccs1-adapter
A PlugShare user kindly told me that they bought this cable, and also had to pay customs / import tax on top. Further, there is an issue that the adapter may not be used when it rains.

 

[manicilia]

Converting from CCS type 1combo to CCS type 2 combo, just got a price from BMW $5000, are they serious and my car is still under warranty.
BMW told me bad luck. Any body else had any success