Why EV's won't be taking over gas cars anytime soon in the USA.

BMW i3 Forum

Help Support BMW i3 Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

sipabit

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 4, 2018
Messages
195
You've seen it everywhere. It seems like everyone thinks that EV's will be taking over the automotive market by storm, that EV's will outsell gas cars. But it won't. Here's why.

Consumers and car manufacturers are using Tesla as a benchmark, but it's the wrong benchmark as a forecast of the overall EV market environment. Tesla is very atypical. The reason for the attraction to Tesla are many but it's not because they're electric. People are driven by the performance, the hype, the pride, the technology, the company and what it stands for. It's fun to talk about with their games on the dashboard and useful features alongside things like fart noises for your passenger. I like it too.

Although the people attracted to Tesla may represent in some way the overall masses of EV buyers, the people who actually end up putting money down and driving them are far from that. Tesla is the one car that's made more people stretch their budget than any other car. Plenty of people are buying them with no intention of charging at home. Some don't have a home to charge at and some don't want to fork over the money for an EVSE.

The population that will dictate the direction of the EV environment currently aren't educated enough about the system as a whole. Car manufacturers don't want to spend their dollars on education unless it translates directly to sales for their own brand. The lack of education is what is holding back EV sales. Here's what I mean.

MYTHS AND MISUNDERSTANDINGS

CONSUMERS WILLING TO PAY MORE DOLLARS FOR MORE RANGE: Range vs Price
False. A vast majority of people strongly considering an EV or who have even bought one already think they need more range than they really do. California has one of the highest averages in daily commutes and even that tops off under 40 miles. As the technology stands now, you still need way more than 2x the battery to get 2x the range.

They want more miles than they can or want to pay for. I follow the used i3 market fairly extensively. Last year a mid range 94ah i3 with 115 miles was selling for an average of $7k more than the low range 60ah ones getting 72 miles. Are people really willing to pay $7k for 43 more miles? No, yet consumers are demanding 400 miles with 200-300 mile range cars already in the market. If drivers aren't using a majority of their battery daily, they're paying in performance and price to carry around a bunch of dead weight.

An empty battery doesn't way any less than a full battery. There's a point where efficiency drops exponentially as the capacity gets higher. The car needs the additional battery just to propel the weight of itself (the additional battery) before it can use the battery to actually propel the car.

The main point is that consumers think they want more range but aren't willing to pay for it. It won't be until they actually understand their range needs, how they'll actually charge their car that they can determine how many dollars to put down to achieve that relative to the opportunity cost of a gas vehicle.

SALES ARE SKYROCKETING OUTSIDE THE USA AND IT'S JUST A MATTER OF TIME BEFORE THE USA CATCHES UP.
False. The reasons why other countries are outselling EV's in big numbers is due to the government incentives that are above and beyond what's being offered in the US.
1. Incentives are better outside the US. In fact the US is starting to implement the opposite. Higher registration fees for EV's, etc.
2. Also the price of EV's are more affordable relative to income levels. Why?
3. Population density. Populations are a lot more dense outside the US. It demands smaller cars, therefore smaller batteries which come at a lower cost and therefore more affordable and more easily absorbed by the masses. That's far from the case in the US. We don't have high density population. San Francisco and Los Angeles are nothing compared to how people live overseas. NY may be the closest comparison and I still argue that people choose to live there. The dense populations in other countries aren't necessarily where people "choose" to live but we can argue that in another thread. That's a big topic. It also wouldn't be fair to say that 3 cities in all of the US represent the US as a whole.

WE NEED CHARGING STATIONS EVERYWHERE
False. Some consumers refuse to consider an EV b/c they don't think the infrastructure is there. They're right. And with Tesla owners in the picture using up public charging stations on their 220mi plus cars, it leaves even fewer stations available for those that really need it.

The US uses EV's a lot differently than the rest of the world and that has to do with population density. Maybe I'm wrong but I'd argue that the US has more homeowners than any other country. The more dense populations tend to be inhabited by renters or even condo owners (or 99 year leases like Hong Kong) and there isn't really a garage that owners can install their very own EVSE to use exclusively. Because of this reason, EV adoption requires public charging. That's not the case in the US.

The US can much more easily adopt EV's by utilizing home charging. As long as people are forking down $5k-7k for fully autonomous capabilities in their Teslas that isn't available yet rather than putting less than half that into a home charger, the priorities clearly aren't set straight and for that reason, the availability of public charging will continue to be more competitive.

No one has admitted it yet, but public charging stations aren't economically beneficial. The companies providing the stations are selling to developers that there will be more traffic because of the availability of charging stations and that traffic will translate into sales for stores which in turn translate to more value in the property. That's not true yet, but property owners are banking on it still.

Even if every public charging station was used something tells me that the areas that they're being built aren't really getting their money back in increased sales. Especially if the location is open 24 hours but the stores aren't. EV's are sucking up juice and they're not paying customers to the stores b/c the store is closed more than half the day.

PUBLIC CHARGING STATIONS COST AS MUCH AS GAS FOR A 35MPG CAR
True. Some people think public charging is free. Some think it's discounted. Both may be true as temporary incentives or a perk from a newly purchased or leased EV, but those that are paying $0.20-30/minute will tell you it's not cheaper than gas.

Not everyone understands the whole charging pricing structure. EV's charge more quickly the more empty it is. So you get more bang for your buck if it's closer to empty. This is in direct conflict with the situation of people wanting high range EV's. With high range EV's, you'd be trickle charging at public stations and paying top dollar. Unless you're one of those people that drive a Tesla for 5 days and then spend the other 2 days looking around for public charging for the next week.

PEOPLE WANT EV'S BECAUSE IT'S COOL
True. If they tell you they want an EV b/c it saves the environment, they're either wrong, lying to you or in the very very small minority. We won't walk about the carbon footprint of making batteries or what happens when they're dumped, but that's something to consider. Most current buyers get EV's for either performance or the steep discount off the car itself. I'm sure many of you/us love the low future maintenance as well but that's secondary.

NEW EV SALES VS USED EV SALES
That's a big one and it says a lot. What incentivises used EV car buyers to put money down is very different than a buyer of a new EV. The person who puts $22k into an almost fully loaded 2017 94ah i3 REX in the color of their choice may not otherwise be buying an EV at all if it was $40-50k. It would be interesting to track the sales figures for new EV's under $40k vs used ones. Used EV's have an advantage b/c buyers are taking the discount that was also offered to the original buyer which makes the overall cost of a used EV substantially lower particularly if bought from an early adopter who would've had a low range EV.

New EV sales are still in the gutter.

DEALERS DON'T REALLY BELIEVE THAT EV'S WILL BE THE FUTURE
True. Despite manufacturers putting heavy dollars on the future of EV's, dealers don't feel the same way. Do manufacturers or dealers have a stronger ability to influence a potential buyer? Not sure, but I know dealers aren't pushing hard on EV sales and few understand them as a whole. Not sure why dealers don't have sales people who are specialists in each sector. All too often even outside the whole EV discussion, the vast majority of dealers know a lot less about the vehicles they sell than the consumers who buy them. We don't go to dealers to get educated. We go there to pick up the car. Maybe b/c we don't demand it, they don't supply it.

CONCLUSION
Those that recognize the EV environment are lucky enough to take advantage of this rare time. Used EV's at huge discounts and ability to go in the HOV (high occupancy vehicle lane) has been a life changer for me. I don't see the overall public initiating their own education and I don't see anyone else pushing it either.

So until consumers take on the responsibility of trying to understand what driving an EV really means and how they fit into the scheme of the current environment, we can expect that people will continue to demanding 300-400 mi range cars for no more than $35k and will only buy it if they can charge their cars for free in under 10 minutes.

For now, car manufacturers are buying into that dream and will take the hit in loss of dollars to continue their research and development to provide cars people don't need at prices people can't afford. At some point, most likely before the public actually realizes reasonable expectations, car manufacturers will bite the bullet, ditch their effort and take the reins to be the ones to dictate what consumers should have b/c they're clearly not comfortable figuring it out themselves. A couple manufacturers will do that, others will stay on track but eventually follow suite.

It's only when manufacturers start building what people need rather than what people want will consumers and manufacturers come together to exchange what we wanted all along - dollars for cars.
 
This is all very well reasoned and I think holds water for the most part., especially today, in terms of how the majority of the population is thinking.

But this competes with the early adopter rule, and the notion that as more users adopt a new technology, they influence their circle of friends, family, and acquaintances. It's unlikely that there are very many EV owners unhappy with their vehicle, and sing the praises of economy and performance. The causual bystander at work can't help but take notice that Fred, Jane, and Terry have begun rolling up in EVs, and that begins the process of re-evaluating some preconceptions they've long held as indisputable truths.

I've seen this play out with 29" wheel adoption on mountain bikes (too heavy, too weak, lack of maneuverability, slow to accelerate -- today you can't find a 26" wheel on a name brand bike), I've seen it with cell phones, then smart phones, and finally keyboardless smartphones. There have to be dozens of similar examples we can come up with.

So I wonder how long the firewall you describe holds up to the persistent, often unintentional chipping away by the early adopters. Years? Decades? It's no doubt the market is going to move that way. How long will it take? I'm betting it's sooner than we think.
 
I don't buy a car because of someone else's choice or wordy dissertation.

My Tesla Model 3 and BMW i3-REx meet my requirements and I'm very happy with the results. Time for poetic relief:

  • Source: http://markandrewholmes.com/effieshead.html

    here is little Effie's head
    by
    E.E. Cummings

    here is little Effie's head
    whose brains are made of gingerbread
    when the judgment day comes
    God will find six crumbs
    . . .
    and the last crumb with some shame
    whispered unto God, my name
    is must and with the others i've
    been Effie who isn't alive

I really don't care if someone wants to waste time addressing what can't happen as I'm too interested in addressing what does happen.

Bob Wilson
 
Guess I should offer some editorial advice:
  • "everyone thinks that EV's will be taking over the automotive market" - this is proven false by the essay.
  • "using Tesla as a benchmark" - curious how many 'Tesla killer' titled articles are around followed by the anti-Tesla and anti-Musk articles. For example, "SeekingAlpha" which caters to TSLA short sellers with the volume and bitterness matched only by their failed projections of Tesla going out of business.
  • "WILLING TO PAY MORE DOLLARS FOR MORE RANGE" - having both a 72 mile EV range BMW i3-REx and 240 mile EV range Model 3, there is a minimum threshold if one is going to do cross country trips and the Tesla fully meets that requirement. In contrast, the BMW i3-REx costs about 5x to travel to Nashville TN making EV travel impractical. Around town, the BMW and Tesla are equal but once you get to half the EV range, time to drive back on EV or fire-up the REx. BTW, Tesla reports their SuperChargers are spaced about 150 miles apart or closer ... more about this later.
  • "SALES ARE SKYROCKETING OUTSIDE THE USA" - a TSLA stock owner, they are doing quite nicely. Yet curiously, many EV critics have claimed the EV market has collapsed. Meanwhile, Tesla does not advertise suggesting those who do, traditional ICE manufactures, are scraping the bottom for any sales.
  • "WE NEED CHARGING STATIONS EVERYWHERE" - a myopic view, the SuperCharger network, 100-250 kW rates, has at least five coast-to-coast routes with cut overs between them. Electrify America is installing CHAdeMO chargers which support 50 kW charging rates but are expensive and sad to say, often unreliable. EVgo also suffers from expensive, slow charging rates.
  • "PUBLIC CHARGING STATIONS COST AS MUCH AS GAS FOR A 35MPG CAR" - that is only true for 50 kW chargers in the Alabama/Tennessee/Mississippi/Georgia area. It is due to the slow charge rate and excessive, per minute cost model. They don't sell by the kilowatt hour but by time on the charger. In contrast, the Tesla Superchargers handle a minimum of 100 kW peak for my Standard Range Plus Model 3 and up to 250 kW on the rare V3 Superchargers. The V2 SuperChargers run up to 150 kW. The really awesome numbers come from BMW i3-REx benchmarks: $24 for EV between Huntsville AL and Nashville TN but only $6 using the range extender. The Tesla is about half the BMW gas cost over the same route.
  • "PEOPLE WANT EV'S BECAUSE IT'S COOL" - sounds like a personal problem. I did a requirements analysis and source selection that led to: (1) used BMW i3-REx in 2016, and (2) Tesla Model 3 in 2019.
  • "NEW EV SALES VS USED EV SALES" - our 2014 BMW i3-REx was bought end-of-lease in 2016. It has over 40,000 miles and remains the backup for our Tesla.
  • "DEALERS DON'T REALLY BELIEVE THAT EV'S WILL BE THE FUTURE" - I would not walk across the street to pee on a dealer on fire. They are so incompetent, best to not waste time with them. Internet sales are OK but they will still waste two hours trying to sell extra stuff.
  • "CONCLUSIONS" - I can only use my personal experience which as my drill instructor once said, "A grain of observation out weights 10 lbs of speculation any day."

I have no personal animus for the author as we have different experiences. Just we have 40,000 miles on our BMW i3-REx and 15,000 miles on our Tesla Model 3. This includes long distance trips of 600-700 miles.

Bob Wilson
 
This just in:

  • Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-results/tesla-filing-shows-u-s-sales-tumbled-39-in-third-quarter-idUSKBN1X81NM

    U.S. sales, which account for the biggest share of the company’s total revenue, fell to $3.13 billion from $5.13 billion a year earlier.

    Sales in China rose 64% to $669 million and its other segment, which covers the rest of the globe, rose by more than a billion dollars to $1.83 billion, a regulatory filing showed.

    “Musk & Co. are laser-focused on Europe and China for growth, while domestically, core demand is fading relative to other regions,” Wedbush analyst Dan Ives said, adding that U.S. growth will remain more challenging going forward.


Bob Wilson
 
“Musk & Co. are laser-focused on Europe and China for growth, while domestically, core demand is fading relative to other regions,” Wedbush analyst Dan Ives said, adding that U.S. growth will remain more challenging going forward.

Wonder if that is projected market due to multiple car manufacturers bringing EV models on-line at more competitive pricing, especially with Tesla customers qualifying for only a $3,750 credit in 2019, and with the credit disappearing completely in 2020.
 
It's nice to see some activity here on the thread. I should clarify that my assessment above is more of an observation or interpretation of what is happening vs what I want to happen.


MKH said:
“Musk & Co. are laser-focused on Europe and China for growth, while domestically, core demand is fading relative to other regions,” Wedbush analyst Dan Ives said, adding that U.S. growth will remain more challenging going forward.

Wonder if that is projected market due to multiple car manufacturers bringing EV models on-line at more competitive pricing, especially with Tesla customers qualifying for only a $3,750 credit in 2019, and with the credit disappearing completely in 2020.

My thoughts are that the regions outside the US are adopting EV's mainly due to the population density. The economy is also very different there. You may notice that China for instance, has companies domestic to them that manufacture cars. With labor rates being low (population density) and regulations lax, there's less red tape than here in the united states.

Without arguing why or why it wouldn't happen, if there was an influx of sub $20k electric vehicles in the US, my guess is that consumers would be more quick to give it a chance and disregard their otherwise concern for range. If they can save a substantial amount of money, that would be a bigger influence than the range anxiety anxiety.

And I call it that b/c it's not really range anxiety people are afraid of. They haven't given it a chance nor have they accessed in detail their mileage needs. It's range anxiety anxiety, meaning the fear of being fearful. I didn't coin that myself, but I agree entirely.


bwilson4web said:
Guess I should offer some editorial advice:
  • "everyone thinks that EV's will be taking over the automotive market" - this is proven false by the essay.
  • "using Tesla as a benchmark" - curious how many 'Tesla killer' titled articles are around followed by the anti-Tesla and anti-Musk articles. For example, "SeekingAlpha" which caters to TSLA short sellers with the volume and bitterness matched only by their failed projections of Tesla going out of business.
  • "WILLING TO PAY MORE DOLLARS FOR MORE RANGE" - having both a 72 mile EV range BMW i3-REx and 240 mile EV range Model 3, there is a minimum threshold if one is going to do cross country trips and the Tesla fully meets that requirement. In contrast, the BMW i3-REx costs about 5x to travel to Nashville TN making EV travel impractical. Around town, the BMW and Tesla are equal but once you get to half the EV range, time to drive back on EV or fire-up the REx. BTW, Tesla reports their SuperChargers are spaced about 150 miles apart or closer ... more about this later.
  • "SALES ARE SKYROCKETING OUTSIDE THE USA" - a TSLA stock owner, they are doing quite nicely. Yet curiously, many EV critics have claimed the EV market has collapsed. Meanwhile, Tesla does not advertise suggesting those who do, traditional ICE manufactures, are scraping the bottom for any sales.
  • "WE NEED CHARGING STATIONS EVERYWHERE" - a myopic view, the SuperCharger network, 100-250 kW rates, has at least five coast-to-coast routes with cut overs between them. Electrify America is installing CHAdeMO chargers which support 50 kW charging rates but are expensive and sad to say, often unreliable. EVgo also suffers from expensive, slow charging rates.
  • "PUBLIC CHARGING STATIONS COST AS MUCH AS GAS FOR A 35MPG CAR" - that is only true for 50 kW chargers in the Alabama/Tennessee/Mississippi/Georgia area. It is due to the slow charge rate and excessive, per minute cost model. They don't sell by the kilowatt hour but by time on the charger. In contrast, the Tesla Superchargers handle a minimum of 100 kW peak for my Standard Range Plus Model 3 and up to 250 kW on the rare V3 Superchargers. The V2 SuperChargers run up to 150 kW. The really awesome numbers come from BMW i3-REx benchmarks: $24 for EV between Huntsville AL and Nashville TN but only $6 using the range extender. The Tesla is about half the BMW gas cost over the same route.
  • "PEOPLE WANT EV'S BECAUSE IT'S COOL" - sounds like a personal problem. I did a requirements analysis and source selection that led to: (1) used BMW i3-REx in 2016, and (2) Tesla Model 3 in 2019.
  • "NEW EV SALES VS USED EV SALES" - our 2014 BMW i3-REx was bought end-of-lease in 2016. It has over 40,000 miles and remains the backup for our Tesla.
  • "DEALERS DON'T REALLY BELIEVE THAT EV'S WILL BE THE FUTURE" - I would not walk across the street to pee on a dealer on fire. They are so incompetent, best to not waste time with them. Internet sales are OK but they will still waste two hours trying to sell extra stuff.
  • "CONCLUSIONS" - I can only use my personal experience which as my drill instructor once said, "A grain of observation out weights 10 lbs of speculation any day."

I have no personal animus for the author as we have different experiences. Just we have 40,000 miles on our BMW i3-REx and 15,000 miles on our Tesla Model 3. This includes long distance trips of 600-700 miles.

I'm not saying Tesla will fail or not fail. My take on it though is that they've succeeded already in their original goal and that's to revolutionize the car industry and create competition (to create availability of more EV's). It's important to note that Musk didn't start Tesla and at one point it was about to go bankrupt but that's another topic for another thread.

Although people take EV's across the country, they're not really designed for that purpose. Just like the whole "occasional use charger". People do use that as their primary charging source but again, it's not meant for that. Each to their own on how consumers use what they buy. I have zero issue with how people use their stuff whether it be cars, bikes or whatever as long as it doesn't harm others. I can get into that in another thread but the main idea is that the majority need is measured by the majority miles. It makes less sense to sacrifice a benefit that can be appreciated day after day over the course of majority of miles so that it can be capable to barely achieving something over minority miles.

Again, each to their own and do what you please but I'm not an advocate for driving an EV on a road trip or long distance trip. It might sound fun and probably is, but it's going against the grain. Those who choose to do that should embrace it and not have to defend themselves. Nor should they be trying to convince others that it's the "right or proper" thing to do. There's a level of tolerance people have to define practicality. With the technology and infrastructure as it is, the majority of the population and EV's need not be crossing the country in them.


eNate said:
This is all very well reasoned and I think holds water for the most part., especially today, in terms of how the majority of the population is thinking.

But this competes with the early adopter rule, and the notion that as more users adopt a new technology, they influence their circle of friends, family, and acquaintances. It's unlikely that there are very many EV owners unhappy with their vehicle, and sing the praises of economy and performance. The causual bystander at work can't help but take notice that Fred, Jane, and Terry have begun rolling up in EVs, and that begins the process of re-evaluating some preconceptions they've long held as indisputable truths.

I've seen this play out with 29" wheel adoption on mountain bikes (too heavy, too weak, lack of maneuverability, slow to accelerate -- today you can't find a 26" wheel on a name brand bike), I've seen it with cell phones, then smart phones, and finally keyboardless smartphones. There have to be dozens of similar examples we can come up with.

So I wonder how long the firewall you describe holds up to the persistent, often unintentional chipping away by the early adopters. Years? Decades? It's no doubt the market is going to move that way. How long will it take? I'm betting it's sooner than we think.

That's a very good point about influence. I suppose that's what we're doing here with this thread for curious minds who come across the discussion who don't already own an EV. People just have different priorities, focus, tolerance for change, outlook for the future and its assessment to how relative their environment is to them.

Wherever people are willing to put their dollars is where/what manufacturers will produce. They'll meet the demand. My overall take on this whole EV environment is that people think they need something that if they were more educated about, would realize that it's in fact not something they'd want with everything else considered (which they may not have considered before).

I wouldn't expect much for the public though. Generally, people don't think it through and don't think that far or care to. There are still people who buy cars w/o consideration of insurance into their budget or who buy houses w/o consideration to the "hidden" cost of property tax, etc. As long as that's still happening which will be forever, I don't have high expectations of the general public on their outlook in EV's. I'm just here to take advantage of this opportunity we have and to share it with others so they have a chance to experience it too.

Again, each to their own. There are plenty of things I don't necessarily like but I can recognize they're good things or good for those people. Like Lord of the Rings. I don't like it, but I can appreciate that it's still a good movie. Just b/c I don't like it doesn't mean it's not good. Good plot, good character development, good story. The definition of good isn't defined by me. The movie may be one the best in the world. I just happen to not like it but can still recognize it's one of the best to ever have been released. I have no qualms about people who like it or dress up like the characters to watch these movies. More power to them. I like seeing people enjoy stuff even if I'm not partaking in it or have no interest myself.
 
Back
Top