VW Golf to undercut BMW on price

[gaz26]

Wonder how long before BMW reduce the price of i3 like Nissan have with the Leaf given a lot of competition coming into a small market. VW say they will price below BMW

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/volkswagen/golf/first-drives/volkswagen-e-golf-first-drive-review

 

[mindmachine]

Wonder how long before BMW reduce the price of i3 like Nissan have with the Leaf given a lot of competition coming into a small market. VW say they will price below BMW

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/volkswagen/golf/first-drives/volkswagen-e-golf-first-drive-review

The Golf is apples and oranges in a comparison of features, not any suprise here that it will be cheaper, no comparison!

 

[Alexander99]

VW cheaper than BMW! Well, duh.

 

[I33t]

Can't talk for the UK, but in Australia Nissan dropped the price of the Leaf because of a lack of sales and ageing inventory. They are still selling old models here...

 

[theo]

I have got a price for the Golf in Sweden and it undercuts the i3 with.....drumroll....circa 300 USD.
To its defense, its got more standard equipment at that price (according ro dealer). Im eagerly awaitin a test drive .

 

[Surge]

OMG...if you think the VW golf and the i3 are comparable, then either BMW has done a terrible job or marketing the i3, or.... :shock:

 

[I33t]

To be fair, the Golf and the i3 are quite close on overall dimensions.

I know this because I have a Golf and I used it's dimensions to get an idea of the size of the i3 as I was unable to actually see an i3 in real life.

So seems they are close on dimensions, price, and range but different in construction, design, and weight...

 

[agj]

So seems they are close on dimensions, price, and range but different in construction, design, and weight...

I would add brand image, environmental credentials and overall prestige to that list

The Golf has to be cheaper by definition.

I also hope the i3 price (next generation) will drop a bit, should it be only because I can imagine that my next car will be an i3 again. But I don't think that comparative pricing to the Golf is a valid argument to do that.

 

[mindmachine]

No comparison, the Golf is a much cheaper car by design, and lacking the innovation of the i3.

 

[cove3]

Apart from the aluminum frame and carbon body, what are the major differences? The 2015 e-Golf is around 3100 lbs so somehow VW got the weight down competitive with the i3, negating that advantage. It has a bigger 750 lb battery, full rear doors, level 2/3 charging standard, and a more conventional look.

I'm replacing my 1988 528E timing belt to buy me another year or two to be able to see how the 2015 e-golf, MB class B, Leaf, and Chevrolet Spark compare to the the i3 bev after normalizing for bottom line price, ride, and looks. My wife thinks the i3 looks quirky, she doesn't like not being able to see the hood, and she hates the interior of the test drive vehicle which has the tan/light wood interior, although the basic model which the dealer didn't have looks from the pictures a little more conventional

It was fun to drive, I'll admit, but I want to test drive the other 3 and let any i3 bugs get shaken out before deciding. The 7500 credit runs to 2016 so I have some time although it will probably be extended if sales are slow. The MB at 4000 lbs is probably too heavy for me, but the quality should be there.

Ron

 

[stumbledotcom]

Apart from the aluminum frame and carbon body, what are the major differences? The 2015 e-Golf is around 3100 lbs so somehow VW got the weight down competitive with the i3, negating that advantage.

Even using VW's PR quote of 3090 lbs. (we won't know true US specs until 2015), the i3 is 456 lbs lighter. That's the equivalent of two XL passengers all the time. Advantage i3 for me.

I live and work in a major urban center so the maneuverability, resilience of body panels, size and tech attracted me to the i3. The fact that it's an EV is secondary. For me, none of the other vehicles you mention are competitive.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a VW fan. I've owned a number over the years. But there is a decided difference in quality and feel of a BMW. I didn't get until I owned one. But now, I don't see myself going back.

 

[buickanddeere]

I wonder if VW won't feature flashing dash warning lamps and spooky handling in cross winds?

 

[cove3]

If the i3 is 2800 lbs curb weight, the e-golf at 3100 would be 300 lbs over. But if the i3 battery is 500 lbs and the egolf is 750, then a lot of that extra weight might be battery.

One of my other posts wondered why the i3 couldn't have a bigger battery or at least a bigger battery option. One reason I might hold off on a i3 is for a battery that would give 100 miles, or better yet, the option to buy a bigger battery in 3kv increments, preferably snap in removable for use only on infrequent longer trips.

The egolf is supposed to hit NY in Nov, and the MB this month.

Ron

 

[stumbledotcom]

If the i3 is 2800 lbs curb weight, the e-golf at 3100 would be 300 lbs over.

I was using the BMW NA quoted DIN weight of 2634. The EU figure, which includes extra weight for a driver and cargo, is 2799. VW doesn't specify which formula it uses to arrive at the 3090 figure.

 

[cove3]

Ok. That's good to know. It's unladen DIN of 2634 lbs vs 3040 lbs. 200 lbs of it is due to a bigger battery, which leaves 206 lbs to explain. But how can e-Golf come within 206 lbs using a steel frame and body and being 11" longer. BMW claims the carbon body alone saves 550-700 lbs. Add in ? for the aluminum frame savings and allow for the extra 11" length and you have a weight difference that's hard to bridge.

The article on BMW's use of carbon fiber also said that VW has a stock interest in the same carbon company as BMW does, but carbon hasn't found it's way into the e-golf. It could in the future, however, as VW has a XL1 1800 lb concept car made of carbon fiber, magnesium, ceramics, and aluminum available in small quantities

But for only 400 extra lbs, the e-Golf comes standard with 4 full doors, 3 seats rear, electric windows on all doors, an 11" longer body, free out of charge service, and free membership in a charging network. Level 3 DC is optional at 600 EU.

I've owned BMW's for 25 years but I'm going to keep an open mind on this one, despite my liking the i3 aluminum/carbon design. There's a lot of things to normalize to pick one, including the unknown US price.

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...lly-be-the-breakthrough-for-carbon-fiber-cars
comparison w/i3-mb at http://www.thestreet.com/story/12707521/1/volkswagen-launches-the-peoples-electric-car.html
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/03/20140313-golf.html

As the e-golf is for sale in Europe, there is a build it configurator at the German VW page which is very useful and can be Google translated.
http://app.volkswagen.de/ihdcc/de/configurator.html#30300

Also an e-Golf overview at
http://translate.google.com/transla...n.de/de/de/private/Autos/eGolf.html&sandbox=1

There's also a sparse US e-golf forum but haven't found one in Germany
http://www.myvwegolf.com/forum/

I'm going to work with the configurator and follow the forum, but at the risk of wrath from the forum members, my take so far is the e-Golf will offer strong competition to the i3

Ron

 

[jadnashuanh]

VW's first trip to the premium car class failed...not so much because the car was bad, but because of the pedigree (the phatom (sp?)). BMW has been 'learning' CFRP for many years, and has included it on bits other than trim in some of the cars for quite awhile now, but the real difference is that the I-series vehicles were designed from the ground up as electric vehicles with significant CFRP components, which is why they are lighter. Trying to re-engineer an existing chassis for electric drive will probably never be as efficient as one that started out intending to be electric. Assuming that BMW's I-series ends up being a long-term success story, and even now, other companies are likely looking into how they can try to catch up. BMW 'owns' a good portion of the production rights of the CF factory...but that factory could expand on their own dime or others, to produce more to take care of increased demand and it could happen faster if those customers helped by providing some money, like BMW just did to the tune of $200M-US to build another production line there for the stuff.

Most countries around the world are pushing the technology to require more efficient vehicles, and one way to do that is to make them lighter, but as strong or stronger. BMW has an edge right now. I wonder how many companies bought one of the i3's, and have been tearing them apart in their labs...I'll bet most of them. Then, you have patents to consider, and the engineering to make it 'better', or at least different enough so you don't have to fend off BMW in a patent dispute. How this all unfolds in the next few years will be interesting.

 

[uktechie]

Worst car I ever owned GOLF GT, never going there again.

 

[cove3]

The i3 ground up design point is true. I would make the following observations:

1. The aluminum frame & carbon body, while coming with 20-30% or whatever weight savings, also come with 20-30% or whatever higher costs

2. Tesla says it's next lower cost model will be a steel frame, not aluminum.

3. Mercedes Benz B class also chose not to go the i3 route

4. VW, like BMW to some degree, redesigned the 2015 Golf platform to accommodate gas, diesel, electric and fuel cell engines. This should allow for major economies of scale with a common platform, and allow them some flexibility in pricing the e-Golf since they only have to cover the incremental electric cost and not the cost of a unique frame/body.

There's a lot of variables at play, but VW is no slouch and as you say, the next few years will indeed be interesting

Ron

 

[jadnashuanh]

Volks Wagen (people's car)...from the inception of the company, a car the majority of the people could buy. Now, the CEO has wanted to expand that to cover making a car for everyone, at any price/quality level, but we'll see how that goes.

 

[Bunter]

We will find out the price of the MB and VW offerings in due course. And then we'll know whether hether they are able to under cut the i3 and it's expensive materials.

Bill