Battery Replacement Under Warranty

[i3an]

Data point: My i3 is a 2014 18.8 kWh BEV Electronaut, one of the earliest produced for the US market, date of manufacture 26 March 2014, first sold in May 2014, so the batteries are just shy of 6 years old, 36,300 miles. Current Max Kappa is 16.1 kWh, or just over 85% of original, with a light-foot range of 80 miles; so at this rate it will take another 5 or 6 years to drop below 70%, with a range of about 60 miles. It is due for a service/inspection in May, so I'll see if they tweak anything.

 

[JLB2]

Not surprising that your battery still has good charge since you've only driven 36k. My 2014 had about as much when it had that many miles on the odometer. Today, it's driven 59k miles and battery is at 14kwh kappa max. I'm hoping it goes down to 13kwh in the next year so I can get it replaced under warranty.

 

[panamamike]

Not surprising that your battery still has good charge since you've only driven 36k. My 2014 had about as much when it had that many miles on the odometer. Today, it's driven 59k miles and battery is at 14kwh kappa max. I'm hoping it goes down to 13kwh in the next year so I can get it replaced under warranty.

I'd recommend talking to BMW about this potential warranty work. I'd find out ahead of time how they determine a battery is eligible for replacement. From a previous thread, was told Max Kappa wasn't the determining criteria.

 

[rgames]

Summary of my experience: my 2014 i3 started cahrging to less than 60 mi about 6 months ago at about 40k miles. It charged to about 90 miles when I first got it. The car has been at the dealership several times over the past year because of the "drivetrain malfunction" sensor error and every time I took it in for that I pressed them to change the battery under warranty.

They fought me on it (of course...) and would never tell me exactly what metric they use to decide whether it meets the 70% capacity stated in the warranty. They would only tell me they "did not" use the mileage. Well that's fine but process of elimination is a stupid way to give me the information I'm asking for.

They never did explain to me what metric is used for the 70% threshold. But they did eventually replace the battery at no cost to me. It took them more than two months.

My experience with the service department is that they're entirely clueless about the i3. One guy cleary didn't understand the difference between a regular 12V battery and the main power pack. But then again, I do love in a state where I was required to bring my all-electric (no REX) car in for an emissions inspection, during which the technician asked me where the tailpipe is. Between the drive to the emissions inspection station and calls to the state I lost about 10 hours getting that resolved. So maybe that level of cluelessness is par for the course.

Just a point of reference.

rgames

 

[eNate]

They fought me on it (of course...) ... But they did eventually replace the battery at no cost to me.

Somebody explain to me the logic behind this.

With a previous employer (aviation) we had a full time warranty person whose job ultimately was to ensure we got paid for the warranty work we did, and this included the tons of paperwork and sign-offs required by the various aircraft manufacturers we had affiliations with. It looked like a huge pain in the butt, but we did it because it was good steady income and it paid for a decent sized service department and a large cadre of mechanics.

Contrast that to BMW (or any auto dealership), and the above example. A battery replacement isn't money out of the dealership's pocket, it's reimbursed by BMW. I can't understand why they would be so reticent to move this along when (a) they're going to get paid and (b) with a battery replacement, here's a new training opportunity for a group of mechanics who have probably never done anything like this, but are going to be called upon in the future.

It just doesn't make sense to me that they wouldn't be itching to take up a job like this.

...I was required to bring my all-electric (no REX) car in for an emissions inspection, during which the technician asked me where the tailpipe is. ...

Lol!

 

[panamamike]

They fought me on it (of course...) ... But they did eventually replace the battery at no cost to me.

...
Contrast that to BMW (or any auto dealership), and the above example. A battery replacement isn't money out of the dealership's pocket, it's reimbursed by BMW. I can't understand why they would be so reticent to move this along when (a) they're going to get paid and (b) with a battery replacement, here's a new training opportunity for a group of mechanics who have probably never done anything like this, but are going to be called upon in the future.

It just doesn't make sense to me that they wouldn't be itching to take up a job like this.

...I was required to bring my all-electric (no REX) car in for an emissions inspection, during which the technician asked me where the tailpipe is. ...

Lol!

It's money out of BMW's pocket and I'm sure they don't make it easy for high dollar claims. I had a similar incident with Acura, have a recall out to do an engine rebuild for engines that have been consuming oil. My vehicle is clearly consuming oil, so I took it in to the dealer which has done a good job for me over several years. They said I had to have an engine oil service and would an oil consumption test, they would take a measurement after 3000 miles to determine if the car was consuming oil. O.K., did that , came back in and they check the car. They go on to inform me that my car isn't consuming enough oil. Acura has a threshold of at least 1 quart of oil over 1000 miles because this is "normal". My car wasn't consuming enough oil to be covered by the claim, they were being rejected by Acura when they tried doing the service when it didn't meet this threshold, even when the consumption was close.

 

[JLB2]

Acura/Honda are notorious for avoiding warranty claims. For me, it was a bad transmission. There was a class-action against them and they paid-up on that on the condition that no further claims could be made after the case was settled. Unfortunately, my transmission broke after the class-action was settled so I got nothing.

Thankfully, no such problems with EVs. Now if we can only get that battery replaced....

 

[3pete]

Another anecdote, but I had my i3 in to the dealer for its 'every two years' brake flush and I asked them to check the battery because I track my Batt. kapa max readings and it's down around 13.4 (13.3-13.7 depending on the day). I figured it would be worth getting the dealer's take on this and also see if they would do 'something' magical to give me a slight bump in capacity as some people seem to have had that happen.

For $120, their official, documented response was that there were no faults for HV battery stored and that the overall voltage, cell min and cell max voltages were found to be in normal range at both half charge and full charge.

As far as I know, they did NOT drain the battery fully because I don't think they kept the car long enough to do so, and I was somewhat keeping an eye on the car via the connected app.

They did have a print out from the test that they showed me but did not give to me (not sure if they would have if I had asked for it) and I was able to note a few things from it:

Both my max and min individual cell voltages were 3.88v
There was a line that showed "State of charge, upper limit" and "State of charge, lower limit". My values were: 69%(!) and 8% respectively.

That means I have 61% of my battery capacity left, yikes!

But wait, it's a 22kwh battery, with an (original) usable capacity of 18.8kwh so let's do some math:

My usable capacity is (69-8)*22 = 13.42 which is unsurprisingly close to the typical Batt. Kapa Max reading.

13.42 also happens to be 71.4% of the 18.8 usable capacity limit which is clearly not far off of 70% threshold. So, I'm thinking I'm about 1.5% away from crossing the warranty threshold line and was hoping for some corroboration from the dealer.

When I picked the car up he summarized again that the battery was "normal." I asked if they could assign a level, percentage or any sort of assessment on how close I was to the 70% threshold. After checking with another person he said that the test doesn't give them a result like that or any sort of score. When I asked how I would know if I should bring the car again for another test or possible warranty claim, since it allegedly has 2 years left on the warranty and I wouldn't want to waste my time, their time and another $120, and he said that the car would show an error message. Additionally, he said there's no way that I can calculate the % used for warranty claim (suspicious) and the warranty is triggered when the battery "fails" the test (duh). Possibly to their credit, he did also imply that if I have any concerns I could bring it back and they would test it for free but I may have misheard that part.

So, long story short, no new information from what has been posted elsewhere:
1) Batt Kapa max is probably the best guide to battery health even though it varies based on the day/ conditions
2) BMW is extremely cagey about what they actually measure to trigger a warranty claim. The official answer(s) is their software, either in your car and inside their test machines.
3) Dealers also don't seem to be very forthcoming with this information. Possibly because BMW corporate is keeping them in the dark as well.

 

[flynt]

New user here. Love my 14 REX, aside from this battery degradation thing. Here's my story:

I got my car around this time last year. I'd get around 75 miles of range on battery-only power for the first 7-8 months of ownership. Then I never got more than 65 miles. Chalked it up to cooler temps in the fall and winter, no big deal. I always charge the car to full on my 220 charger. When the car is ta home, it's usually on the charger.

In January I started seeing 60 miles max per charge, and the weather was warmer. Read about "batt. kappa max" here on the forum and started tracking it. First entry in my spreadsheet is January 27th - 48 degrees Fahrenheit, 52 miles of range, batt kappa max at 13.8. By April by April 26th - 3 months later- I saw my range drop to around 52 miles (83 degrees, 50 miles range, 13.2 batt. kappa max). My low for a single charge was 44 miles. You can see as you red down the spreadsheet - 13.8, 13.6, 13.4, 13.3, 13.2. It's a pretty smooth decline..

According to my calculations I was at 70.2% battery capacity. Granted, batt. kappa max is an estimate, etc.. but it was trending down over a fairly short period of time. Falling off a cliff, really. To go from a consistent 75 miles to 55 miles TOPS in a year is unacceptable. Time to call the only people I know of that have the ability to look into this problem for me - the dealer.

This is where the story gets weird. The dealer is cagey about what info they'll give. I ask what they do in this situation, how they check capacity? They tell me they plug the car in and BMW looks at the car and tells them how to proceed. They then measure the capacity of the battery with their diagnostic software. Questions are answered with rambling non-answers. No real info for me. 6 days later I get the car back and magically I'm at 16.2 batt kappa max. The car says it has roughly the same range, but after a couple drives it goes up to 64 miles. Dealer says I had 77% capacity. Also says they'd be happy if I was at the threshold for a warranty claim as they'd love the work. Right.

Now, I'm happy they've returned some range to me. What I'm afraid of is owning a failing battery pack which my local dealer (or BMW corporate) has moved the "safety stops" on. I had a pack which according to the car (batt. kappa max) was at 70%. I have the same pack, which is now miraculously at 86%. Not only did the dealership not tell me that they got me more capacity, they didn't tell me how they test capacity or what parameters they check. Doesn't seem right (legal?) to engineer and sell a car with certain parameters built into how the main power source functions, and when it stops functioning in that way the manufacturer reengineers it.

I'm going to call the dealer and try to get some info. Just thought I'd share some real world experience here. There doesn't seem to be much out there.

 

[i3Houston]

New user here. Love my 14 REX, aside from this battery degradation thing. Here's my story:

I got my car around this time last year. I'd get around 75 miles of range on battery-only power for the first 7-8 months of ownership. Then I never got more than 65 miles. Chalked it up to cooler temps in the fall and winter, no big deal. I always charge the car to full on my 220 charger. When the car is ta home, it's usually on the charger.

In January I started seeing 60 miles max per charge, and the weather was warmer. Read about "batt. kappa max" here on the forum and started tracking it. First entry in my spreadsheet is January 27th - 48 degrees Fahrenheit, 52 miles of range, batt kappa max at 13.8. By April by April 26th - 3 months later- I saw my range drop to around 52 miles (83 degrees, 50 miles range, 13.2 batt. kappa max). My low for a single charge was 44 miles. You can see as you red down the spreadsheet - 13.8, 13.6, 13.4, 13.3, 13.2. It's a pretty smooth decline..

According to my calculations I was at 70.2% battery capacity. Granted, batt. kappa max is an estimate, etc.. but it was trending down over a fairly short period of time. Falling off a cliff, really. To go from a consistent 75 miles to 55 miles TOPS in a year is unacceptable. Time to call the only people I know of that have the ability to look into this problem for me - the dealer.

This is where the story gets weird. The dealer is cagey about what info they'll give. I ask what they do in this situation, how they check capacity? They tell me they plug the car in and BMW looks at the car and tells them how to proceed. They then measure the capacity of the battery with their diagnostic software. Questions are answered with rambling non-answers. No real info for me. 6 days later I get the car back and magically I'm at 16.2 batt kappa max. The car says it has roughly the same range, but after a couple drives it goes up to 64 miles. Dealer says I had 77% capacity. Also says they'd be happy if I was at the threshold for a warranty claim as they'd love the work. Right.

Now, I'm happy they've returned some range to me. What I'm afraid of is owning a failing battery pack which my local dealer (or BMW corporate) has moved the "safety stops" on. I had a pack which according to the car (batt. kappa max) was at 70%. I have the same pack, which is now miraculously at 86%. Not only did the dealership not tell me that they got me more capacity, they didn't tell me how they test capacity or what parameters they check. Doesn't seem right (legal?) to engineer and sell a car with certain parameters built into how the main power source functions, and when it stops functioning in that way the manufacturer reengineers it.

I'm going to call the dealer and try to get some info. Just thought I'd share some real world experience here. There doesn't seem to be much out there.

Not sure why they are not transparent about it. Are they supposed to use the reserves range to increase the kappa percentage or is that even possible?

 

[flynt]

Just spoke with the shop foreman - My car got a software update. Supposedly it's like your iphone.. the dealer updates it, but even they are in the dark as to what is in the update. So I guess it really is magic that batt kappa max used to say 13.2 and now it says 16.2. Seems shady to me.

Imagine you buy a car that is advertised to have 300 HP. If it gets down to 210 HP within 10 years or 100k miles the manufacturer says you get a new engine. You document as best you can with a hidden menu in the car you're down to 210 HP within 6 years and 58k miles. You take it to the dealer, they reprogram the ECU or crank up the boost (but don't touch the engine - AKA the failing part) and miraculously you're back up to 258 HP.. for now.

I'll shut up for now and enjoy my range. I love my car and I'm glad I'm back up to 86% of advertised battery capacity. I don't love the lack of transparency in this software update I just got. Anybody else get this software update?

 

[i3Houston]

Just spoke with the shop foreman - My car got a software update. Supposedly it's like your iphone.. the dealer updates it, but even they are in the dark as to what is in the update. So I guess it really is magic that batt kappa max used to say 13.2 and now it says 16.2. Seems shady to me.

Imagine you buy a car that is advertised to have 300 HP. If it gets down to 210 HP within 10 years or 100k miles the manufacturer says you get a new engine. You document as best you can with a hidden menu in the car you're down to 210 HP within 6 years and 58k miles. You take it to the dealer, they reprogram the ECU or crank up the boost (but don't touch the engine - AKA the failing part) and miraculously you're back up to 258 HP.. for now.

I'll shut up for now and enjoy my range. I love my car and I'm glad I'm back up to 86% of advertised battery capacity. I don't love the lack of transparency in this software update I just got. Anybody else get this software update?

What was in the software update?

And does this update carves out the range from battery reserve?

Don't think dealership would like to go in the details.

 

[joni3s]

bitttersweet.

There were folks reporting last year that a previous version of ISTA allowed to affect the kap. wonder if this is what they did?

I would keep checking to see if the kap stays the same.

 

[i3Houston]

bitttersweet.

There were folks reporting last year that a previous version of ISTA allowed to affect the kap. wonder if this is what they did?

I would keep checking to see if the kap stays the same.

Luckily battery is warranted for 10 years right or is it 8? Couple more years in later case.

I read somewhere that a Leaf owner had to give his car DC fast charge treatment because of the timing.

 

[alohart]

I don't love the lack of transparency in this software update I just got. Anybody else get this software update?

Have you checked the system software version by backing up your driver profiles to a USB drive using the iDrive command, mounting that USB drive on a computer, opening the driver profile file in a text editor, and reading the value of the <i-step> tag? This is how mine looks:

<i-step>I001-18-11-520</i-step>

which means that the system software version on our 2014 BEV was produced in November, 2018.

If your system software was just updated, it should have been produced no more than 4 months ago. However, if software other than the entire system software suite was updated, we don't know which software was updated, unfortunately.

I suspect that the battery management system on 60 Ah i3's reduces the available capacity under certain conditions to reduce the cell degradation rate to minimize BMW's risk of battery pack warranty claims. This "software update" might restore some of the usable capacity for a period of time. We just don't know. It seems that nothing similar is occurring with 94 Ah and 120 Ah battery packs.

 

[Unhappycustomer]

I just came back from my local BMW dealer in Chandler, Arizona, after asking for a warranty replacement. Have a 2014 i3. Love the car! But the battery range is too limited to be of much use in the sprawling Phoenix metro area. Lately, with high temperatures exceeding 110 degrees Fahrenheit my maximum range in comfort mode (you know, when the air conditioning really works!) has been 44 miles. Last winter, when lows sometimes got down to 32 degrees, the range was about 50 miles. In optimal temperatures (60-75 degrees) the range has been around 58 miles.

Checked YouTube videos and learned how to unlock the service diagnostics to check my battery storage capacity. Simple procedure. Takes 3 minutes. According to my car's internal information my battery has a 12.3 kWh storage capacity. Original capacity on the 2014 is 18.8 kWh, so it's at 65.4% original capacity. The car is at slightly more than 40,000 miles and, since it's only 6 years old, is well within the warranty replacement requirements of 70% capacity, 8 years, and 100,000 miles. So far, so good, right?

Nope! The service manager was very nice, but said BMW requires him to run a diagnostic procedure that it will only pay for if the battery tests below 70% at the end. So, I have to pay $215 up front to upgrade my car's software - that BMW won't reimburse - and $400 for the service department to run the test that will only be reimbursed if the battery ultimately tests under 70% capacity.

Not only that, but BMW won't replace my 2014 battery with an 80 mile range with their new 2019 battery that has a range close to 150 miles. I understand they don't want to give me something better than I originally bought, but come on - they're still making a 2014 battery rack just so they can use it for warranty replacements? What other conceivable reason could BMW have for continuing to manufacture an outdated system? I know from friends that when Nissan replaces batteries under warranty it replaces the old batteries with the latest model available, currently with a 220 mile range. Can't BMW do the same for its loyal customers? This is BMW "quality"? Ha! What a joke! I'm getting a Nissan next time.

In the meantime, I'll ask to pay the difference in cost between the warranted battery replacement and the new battery. But after this experience, I'm not holding my breath.

 

[i3Houston]

Big if is that whether their diagnosis will qualify battery replacement. Some have said, software update unlocks the reserve battery increasing the overall capacity.


Regardless the warranty, most of i3 owners will be willing to pay out of pocket to get an upgrade.

Maybe BMW consider this strategy might hurt new car sales or just an supply chain problem, not really sure.

 

[alohart]

Not only that, but BMW won't replace my 2014 battery with an 80 mile range with their new 2019 battery that has a range close to 150 miles.

Apparently, the 120 Ah battery pack has changed enough that it is not a direct replacement for a 60 Ah battery pack. It's possible to install the 120 Ah battery pack in an early 2014, but doing so requires replacing expensive components that aren't part of the battery pack.

On the other hand, BMW USA has upgraded 60 Ah battery packs to the 94 Ah version in a few early i3's but stopped doing this for some reason. That would certainly be a worthwhile upgrade if you could convince your dealer to do it (probably unlikely even if you agreed to pay a cost difference).

 

[opossum]

To "Unhappycustomer" and others like us experiencing significant range/capacity loss (and possible headaches with dealers, capacity tests and warranty claims), we should probably keep in touch. If you don't want to post your experiences on this forum, feel free to reach out to me directly in a private message and we can chat offline and/or build our own little group to communicate.

Unfortunately, my wife and I have been through this whole mess before. We had S/N 500 of the first model year of the Nissan LEAF (2011) and were at the very front of the wave of early owners seeing significant capacity loss in hot climates. After just a year of ownership (Phoenix, AZ, USA), we had lost 15% capacity. By 1.5 years of ownership, we had lost about 30%. In summary, we had to help lead the fight against Nissan by teaming up with other LEAF owners, doing several stories with the news media, contacting various advocacy groups, running our own capacity test event, etc. Nissan even took 6 of our cars to their test facility near Casa Grande, AZ for detailed analysis. Long story short, they ended up buying back our car and several others. They have since changed battery chemistry a time or two, but have yet to implement active thermal management for the LEAF battery pack to account for the extreme heat of asphalt in the desert! The newly announced Nissan Ariya EV *will* have active thermal management, and there are comments online about Nissan learning from their experience with the LEAF. But I digress...

We didn't think we'd see this issue with the i3, given that it has a more aggressive thermal management system. But here we are. Whether it's truly capacity loss or 'just' the software losing track of the battery capacity, as noted by someone earlier, we are seeing some of the same dealer/manufacturer issues we saw with Nissan. Claims of no battery issue when there is clearly capacity loss. Reluctance to give information to the owner on the state of health of the battery. Reluctance to run tests.

Here's our history:

2/9/15: Approximate date our 2014 BMW i3 was received by its first 'owner' (leased vehicle, somewhere in California)
11/4/17: Purchased by us as CPO at BMW North Scottsdale (37,000 miles)

We noticed significant range loss in 2019 and started tracking the Kappa Max value monthly. At the beginning of December 2019, we took the car to the dealer for a few warranty repairs. I also stated a concern about range/capacity and asked them to do a diagnostic/capacity test. They updated the car's software, held the car for a day or two, did the test, and documented a capacity of 72%, which aligns with the Kappa Max values I had been tracking. But when I picked up the car, sure enough, the car's projected range was consistently about 10 miles higher than it was right before the service, and the Kappa Max values were also up. The values dropped a little by March, but then the Covid apocalypse hit and we haven't been driving much, so the values have 'improved' even more.

Date / Calculated Capacity / Kappa Max Value / Mileage
6/14/19 77% 14.5 55147
7/30/19 76% 14.3 55937
8/29/19 75% 14.1 56761
9/18/19 75% 14.1 57256
9/29/19 74% 14.0 57609
10/28/19 73% 13.8 58570
11/27/19 73% 13.7 59653
12/5/19 79% 14.9 59819
12/28/19 81% 15.2 60503
1/28/20 81% 15.2 61608
2/28/20 80% 15.1 62347
3/28/20 80% 15.0 62347
4/28/20 81% 15.2 63374
5/28/20 84% 15.8 63679
6/24/20 82% 15.4 63934

I'm rather concerned about these anecdotes about BMW being rather tight-lipped about battery health and the company reluctance to run diagnostic tests and warranty batteries. Again, please reach out to me privately if you are experiencing range/capacity loss and do not feel comfortable posting publicly. Much like our very long, stressful fight with Nissan, this may require some teamwork to figure out the way to make resolving these issues as painless as possible.

Mason

 

[Relliott]

Just got mine (2014 Rex) checked today:
76% - so close, yet so far away. My dealer misquoted the new battery warranty and swears the battery warranty is 10 years 150k not 8/80. $370.