i3 REx Reportedly Does Not Qualify for California White HOV

user 368 · Jan 9, 2014

Reposting this from another thread since it deserves its own discussion:

Yiiikes said:
This will complicate the REx discussion in California

http://insideevs.com/bmw-i3-rex-reportedly-doesnt-qualify-for-white-hov-sticker-in-california/

The report says that the i3 won't qualify for the white sticker, probably won't get green stickers because the 40,000 allocated will run out around the time deliveries start, and won't get the $2,500 California rebate.

Hard to believe, since the CARB exemption was created at BMW's request specifically for the i3.

Or maybe I just don't want to believe it.

tiburonh · Jan 9, 2014

bilofsky said:
Reposting this from another thread since it deserves its own discussion:

Yiiikes said:

This will complicate the REx discussion in California

http://insideevs.com/bmw-i3-rex-reportedly-doesnt-qualify-for-white-hov-sticker-in-california/

Click to expand...

Wow, this is a huge blow.

I'm not sure the BEV alone has enough capacity for the majority of California commuters. It's not just a question of distance, it's also a question of time, as we spend a lot of time just inching along (even in the HOV lane!) on our commutes.

My dealer here in the San Francisco area was planning to charge a $5,000 premium over MSRP for each i3. I suspect they will have to rethink that position now!

Perhaps the only good thing to come out of this might be if it frees BMW up now to let drivers decide on their own when to kick in the Rex instead of limiting it to only be able to turn on the Rex when the battery is down to 5%.

user 368 · Jan 9, 2014

tiburonh said:
I'm not sure the BEV alone has enough capacity for the majority of California commuters. It's not just a question of distance, it's also a question of time, as we spend a lot of time just inching along (even in the HOV lane!) on our commutes.

Air resistance increases with the square of velocity. Since your EV isn't wasting fuel idling in traffic, inching along will be more energy efficient, if not of your time. OTOH a lot of stop and go will use up charge because regenerative braking only recaptures a small fraction of energy. Driving style will probably matter a lot here.

Back to the report. If true, it's terrible public policy. The BEVx classification is a badly needed bridge technology to promote widespread EV acceptance while range and infrastructure develop further.

Did Tesla convince CARB to protect a home state corporation at the expense of promoting sustainability?

dennis · Jan 9, 2014

tiburonh said:
bilofsky said:

Reposting this from another thread since it deserves its own discussion:

Yiiikes said:

This will complicate the REx discussion in California

http://insideevs.com/bmw-i3-rex-reportedly-doesnt-qualify-for-white-hov-sticker-in-california/

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Wow, this is a huge blow.

My thoughts exactly... Have to figure if I go back to BEV vs BEVx because of this. The HOV Sticker adds value to the car that will stick with it until 2019. Unless the Electronaut edition of BEVx gets to California BEFORE all 40,000 Green stickers are handed out. Then again, BEVx could retain a wider potential resale value in California after 2019 as both stickers will expire then. Decisions, decisions.

tiburonh said:
...

I'm not sure the BEV alone has enough capacity for the majority of California commuters. It's not just a question of distance, it's also a question of time, as we spend a lot of time just inching along (even in the HOV lane!) on our commutes.

Even with being an exception to the averages, I disagree... Both websites that track Active E behavior the Active E FB group self reported numbers and the automated one from BMW have always indicated slightly less than 40 miles to be the average. (I guess that makes me above average)

tiburonh said:
...
My dealer here in the San Francisco area was planning to charge a $5,000 premium over MSRP for each i3. I suspect they will have to rethink that position now!

Perhaps the only good thing to come out of this might be if it frees BMW up now to let drivers decide on their own when to kick in the Rex instead of limiting it to only be able to turn on the Rex when the battery is down to 5%.

Good points, doubt they will reconfigure it for the Euro behavior this close to launch, but then again, it IS software to do that, so I could be wrong.

MarkN · Jan 9, 2014

tiburonh said:
Perhaps the only good thing to come out of this might be if it frees BMW up now to let drivers decide on their own when to kick in the Rex instead of limiting it to only be able to turn on the Rex when the battery is down to 5%.

I certainly hope so. That would make the REx much more useful in Colorado, which has a $6,000 tax credit available for either version.

Sranger · Jan 9, 2014

This looks to be real...

http://www.thestreet.com/story/12221040/1/bmw-suffers-big-setback-against-tesla-in-california.html

Now there is NO good reason for BMW not to allow you to start the REx under 80% charge like the rest of the world and put in a little bigger fuel tank.....

If this is true and BMW is smart enough to forget about this little California Loop hole, it could actually increase sales of the i3....

cab · Jan 10, 2014

Frankly, the whole thing regarding this "regulation" smacked of an insider deal BMW was making with California, and I am glad they did away with it. Having said that, I agree with other posters that it would be nice for range extender vehicles to be acknowledged and taken into account. I mean, sheesh, a recent article suggested that Volt owners (of which I am one) are actually driving more total electric miles than Leaf owners on average (a range extender engine will do that for you, since you are always willing to use every last mile of battery power). I, myself, am 87% pure battery over 17.5k miles and that's with a battery "officially" rated at 35 miles of range (note: I seem to be averaging closer to 40 on a charge).

To play devil's advocate, if BMW "negotiated" this in good faith with California and then got the rug pulled out form underneath them, this does seem to be a bit of a ream job for them. The flip-flopping just encourages manufacturer's to build compliance cars and leave it at that.

toolworker · Jan 10, 2014

cab said:
Frankly, the whole thing regarding this "regulation" smacked of an insider deal BMW was making with California, and I am glad they did away with it.

They didn't do away with the deal. The four standards for BEVx vehicles are in effect. Even if BMW negotiated the standards, probably the i3 didn't meet them all when tested. It might have flunked the SULEV emissions or 80 mile tested range.

And I don't think it smells of an inside deal. BMW obviously believes in the i3 as an environmental car. They went to CARB and said, "Look, here's a car that will be run almost completely on electricity." (The way you run your Volt, for example.) "Let's agree on restrictions that will make that even more likely. Then we'll build it within those restrictions, and you encourage people to keep buying it, even when the green stickers run out, by making it white sticker eligible."

Seems like a win-win to me. Except (I speculate) BMW didn't hold up its end of the win.

I want to buy a i3 so I can run it 100% on electricity. But I don't want to be stranded if I lose range to battery aging or on a chilly day, or need to run an errand in addition to my 53 mile round trip. I want to tromp on the pedal without worrying about range. So the i3 EV is a non-starter for me, and I won't buy the REx if the green stickers have run out.

That's a loss for the environment.

cab · Jan 10, 2014

toolworker said:
cab said:

Frankly, the whole thing regarding this "regulation" smacked of an insider deal BMW was making with California, and I am glad they did away with it.

Click to expand...

They didn't do away with the deal. The four standards for BEVx vehicles are in effect. Even if BMW negotiated the standards, probably the i3 didn't meet them all when tested. It might have flunked the SULEV emissions or 80 mile tested range.

And I don't think it smells of an inside deal. BMW obviously believes in the i3 as an environmental car. They went to CARB and said, "Look, here's a car that will be run almost completely on electricity." (The way you run your Volt, for example.) "Let's agree on restrictions that will make that even more likely. Then we'll build it within those restrictions, and you encourage people to keep buying it, even when the green stickers run out, by making it white sticker eligible."

Seems like a win-win to me. Except (I speculate) BMW didn't hold up its end of the win.

I want to buy a i3 so I can run it 100% on electricity. But I don't want to be stranded if I lose range to battery aging or on a chilly day, or need to run an errand in addition to my 53 mile round trip. I want to tromp on the pedal without worrying about range. So the i3 EV is a non-starter for me, and I won't buy the REx if the green stickers have run out.

That's a loss for the environment.

tw - can you point me to the exact CARB standards for the BEVx vehicles? I thought I had the link, but I don't seem to be able to find it. If the whole "gas range can't exceed electric range" and other aspects of the rule discussed last year are still in place and BMW did indeed blow it, that is really embarrassing for them (and I have to believe someone will get canned over it). The saddest part of all in this is that California traffic is so bad that the HOV lane has become the driving factor (no pun intended) for buying a dang car...not being green...not saving money...not wanting to stop supporting "big oil"...not the sweet smoothness or torque of electric driving...but instead the sheer disgust at having to sit in traffic and the desire to do it less. Worse, this isn't even a solution as soon there will be enough cars clogging the HOV (or in this case LOV) lanes that it won't make a difference.

On the upside...I don't live in California!

michael · Jan 10, 2014

I don't see this as such a big deal, assuming it's even true.

I have an EV with white stickers, and they only help occasionally...if the traffic is free flowing, you're better off in the mainline. If it's really jammed, the carpool lane is jammed as well. There's only a narrow window in which the carpool lane moves and the mainline is slow.

And the stickers are butt-ugly. I very rarely see a Tesla with the stickers.

I'm actually hoping a bunch of people decide against a I3-Rex because of the lack of stickers....it will give me a better chance of actually getting hold of one and at a reasonable price.

tiburonh · Jan 10, 2014

cab said:
toolworker said:

cab said:

Frankly, the whole thing regarding this "regulation" smacked of an insider deal BMW was making with California, and I am glad they did away with it.

Click to expand...

They didn't do away with the deal. The four standards for BEVx vehicles are in effect. Even if BMW negotiated the standards, probably the i3 didn't meet them all when tested. It might have flunked the SULEV emissions or 80 mile tested range.

And I don't think it smells of an inside deal. BMW obviously believes in the i3 as an environmental car. They went to CARB and said, "Look, here's a car that will be run almost completely on electricity." (The way you run your Volt, for example.) "Let's agree on restrictions that will make that even more likely. Then we'll build it within those restrictions, and you encourage people to keep buying it, even when the green stickers run out, by making it white sticker eligible."

Seems like a win-win to me. Except (I speculate) BMW didn't hold up its end of the win.

I want to buy a i3 so I can run it 100% on electricity. But I don't want to be stranded if I lose range to battery aging or on a chilly day, or need to run an errand in addition to my 53 mile round trip. I want to tromp on the pedal without worrying about range. So the i3 EV is a non-starter for me, and I won't buy the REx if the green stickers have run out.

That's a loss for the environment.

Click to expand...

tw - can you point me to the exact CARB standards for the BEVx vehicles? I thought I had the link, but I don't seem to be able to find it. If the whole "gas range can't exceed electric range" and other aspects of the rule discussed last year are still in place and BMW did indeed blow it, that is really embarrassing for them (and I have to believe someone will get canned over it). The saddest part of all in this is that California traffic is so bad that the HOV lane has become the driving factor (no pun intended) for buying a dang car...not being green...not saving money...not wanting to stop supporting "big oil"...not the sweet smoothness or torque of electric driving...but instead the sheer disgust at having to sit in traffic and the desire to do it less. Worse, this isn't even a solution as soon there will be enough cars clogging the HOV (or in this case LOV) lanes that it won't make a difference.

On the upside...I don't live in California!

Hi Cab- Is this what you are looking for? http://www.arb.ca.gov/regact/2012/zev2012/zevfsor.pdf

And here's the short version, just the four rules:

The basic criteria for the BEVx's are:
1. The APU range is equal to or less than the all-electric range;
2. Engine operation cannot occur until the battery charge has been depleted to the charge-sustaining lower limit
3. A minimum 75 miles electric range (was initially 80, but got changed to 75)
4. Super ultra low emission vehicle (SULEV) and zero evaporative emissions compliant and TZEV warranty requirements (i.e., 10 years) on the battery system.

So it would seem the i3 has ended up not meeting either #3 or #4?

tiburonh · Jan 10, 2014

As posted on BMWBlog, here's what BMW now is saying officially about the Street article about the CARB ruling in CA:

The i3 with Range Extender qualifies for the green sticker, which is limited in numbers and will run out in the eventual future (possibly late in 2014). This is technically to be expected since the car is equipped with an internal combustion engine which potentially emits fuel fumes, and thus makes it harder to qualify for the white sticker which typically can be obtained by full battery-electric vehicles (BEV) and Hydrogen vehicles. The white sticker is not limited in terms of numbers. There is a continued, constructive relationship between BMW and CARB executives, and there has been no reversal of position. It also bears mention that the i3 with Range Extender qualifies for the full CA incentive amount of $2,500 – so the statement in the original article that the owners will not receive CA state incentive money is also wrong.

toolworker · Jan 10, 2014

cab said:
tw - can you point me to the exact CARB standards for the BEVx vehicles?

Near the end of this blog post, and there's a link to the full CARB report.

On the upside...I don't live in California!

That's OK. Some states lead, some follow.

cab · Jan 11, 2014

Thanks. The comments and responses were very interesting in that doc too. It does seem the ARB is putting too much emphasis on zero emissions battery only solutions which, as one commenter noted, requires a greater level of consumer adaptation than a PHEV would. It is one thing to make car manufacturers do something...another to get all the buyers to "comply". We already know consumers have trouble understanding and accepting electric cars. The ARB's attitude seems a bit dismissive to PHEVs despite the fact they can reduce emissions dramatically....seems like a case of letting the "perfect" be the enemy of the "good".

toolworker · Jan 14, 2014

CARB website now says "As of December 31, 2013, 28,739 "green" stickers have been issued."

This is up from 24,452 as of Nov. 8.

If stickers continue to be issued at the same daily rate, they will run out on May 22, 2014.

(Probably the day before my REx i3 is delivered. If I still want one, that is.)

dennis · Jan 14, 2014

toolworker said:
CARB website now says "As of December 31, 2013, 28,739 "green" stickers have been issued."

This is up from 24,452 as of Nov. 8.

If stickers continue to be issued at the same daily rate, they will run out on May 22, 2014.

(Probably the day before my REx i3 is delivered. If I still want one, that is.)

If it's any consolation, you need to have the license plate before ANY of the stickers are issued, so, if you get your car on the 23rd of May... They would've run out of green stickers a few weeks prior to getting your plates.

toolworker · Jan 15, 2014

dennis said:
If it's any consolation, you need to have the license plate before ANY of the stickers are issued, so, if you get your car on the 23rd of May... They would've run out of green stickers a few weeks prior to getting your plates.

Right.

When I got my Plug-in Prius, many of the dealers got us to fill out the registration forms and write a check for the DMV sticker fee once they had the VIN. They got the plates the day the car hit the dealership and mailed in the application.

At the time there were plenty of stickers, but everyone was eager to get theirs.

TomMoloughney · Jan 15, 2014

toolworker said:
CARB website now says "As of December 31, 2013, 28,739 "green" stickers have been issued."

This is up from 24,452 as of Nov. 8.

If stickers continue to be issued at the same daily rate, they will run out on May 22, 2014.

(Probably the day before my REx i3 is delivered. If I still want one, that is.)

It's something to keep an eye on but remember, the last month of the year is usually the highest selling month there is and this year we sold over 5,000 PHEV's in December. January and February are the slowest so the rate of sticker assignments will not continue as it did monthly from November to December. I would be very surprised if the green stickers ran our before the end of the summer, but we'll see.

toolworker · Jan 18, 2014

TomMoloughney said:
It's something to keep an eye on but remember, the last month of the year is usually the highest selling month there is and this year we sold over 5,000 PHEV's in December. January and February are the slowest so the rate of sticker assignments will not continue as it did monthly from November to December. I would be very surprised if the green stickers ran our before the end of the summer, but we'll see.

Good point. That's the way the graph ran this year, although increasing plug-in acceptance could also have been a factor, and that will carry over into 2014.

And more to the point, when the next green sticker number is announced, probably around March 1, it will be well over 30,000. Then we'll start seeing news stories about the 40,000 limit, sparking a stampede to buy Volts.

So May wouldn't surprise me at all.

toolworker · Feb 19, 2014

The i3 EV was added to the CA ARB list of HOV sticker-qualified vehicles on Feb. 7.

The REx isn't on there yet, though I expect it will be, for a green sticker.

i3 REx Reportedly Does Not Qualify for California White HOV

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