BMW i3 REx vs Tesla S 60kwh

Much has been posted about the Tesla S and BMW i3 being too dissimilar to compare, but I disagree. The Tesla S and BMW i3 REx are the top 2 premium EVs, in base form they have roughly the same 160 mile range before refueling, and are less than $20,000 different in net cost for those of us in Georgia (roughly $25,000 difference for the rest of y’all).

I have become a fan of the BMW “i” concept because of the many smart choices they have made along the way. In my opinion, the best and boldest choice was to develop a truly clean sheet process and design that makes little compromise in delivering far and away the world’s most environmentally friendly automobile, especially when evaluated from cradle to grave. In contrast, Tesla’s focus seems to have been on building electric for the sake of being electric, with little consideration for sustainability in design, materials, manufacturing, operation, or total life cycle of their vehicles.

That said, the end products of both manufacturers are truly fantastic, possibly the two best cars in the world. The purpose of this post is to examine which might be best for which driver.

Some weeks ago, my wife and I took a Tesla S out for a spin within a week of test driving the BMW i3, so both would be fresh in our minds for a relevant comparison. Bottom line is that I came away less impressed with the Tesla S than I was prepared to be. Perhaps the several details pointed out by the salesman that were based on Mercedes luxury cars were most telling. My opinion only, but my experience with BMW is that they are best at building cars that enhance the experience of people who like to drive, and feel more glued to the road. That is why they build great sport sedans, and mediocre luxury sedans. I’d also observe that Mercedes is best at building cars that enhance the experience of people who do not really like to drive, and want to be isolated as much as possible from feeling a part of the road. That is why they build great luxury sedans and mediocre sport sedans. In driving feel, the Tesla S is the Mercedes of the EV world, while the BMW i3 is the BMW of the EV world,. The Tesla S is a fantastic luxury car. The ride could not be smoother and straight line acceleration is simply breathtaking. Turn the wheel a bit to corner or change lanes at speed, however, and the thing feels like a battleship. By contrast, the i3 has more than adequate acceleration, and far more spirited cornering and general handling than the Tesla S. On whole it is significantly more responsive and fun to drive.

More surprisingly, the i3 beats out the Tesla S on seating room. While it can fit one more person in the rear seat than the i3, all 3 Tesla S rear seat occupants have to be pretty small. My 6’ 2” frame could fit in the rear of the i3 sitting upright, and reasonably high off of the floor with a little headroom. While the Tesla S certainly had more front to back space between the driver and rear passenger seat, that space was eaten up quickly by having to slouch mightily, and with my head against the glass moonroof, the high floor forced my knees up nearly even with my chin. The i3 has much more comfortable rear seats for tall folks.

Below is the summary of a subjective and objective comparison of the two vehicles. My takeaway is that if the bulk of your driving between refueling opportunities consists of trips between 80 and 160 miles, you have another car for longer trips, you have no need to carry tall people in the rear seats, and can afford it, the Tesla S may be for you. For the rest of us, the BMW i3 probably makes more sense, and is significantly more fun to drive.



edited 1/3/2014 correcting energy units to watt-hours/mile
edited 1/3/2014 correcting energy units in footnote to watt-hours/mile

It's no comparison between a model s and an i3.
One's a big car the other is a small city car.
You can't compare a 7-series with a mini either. Just based on the fact they both have an ICE.

If you have any in-depth questions about either car, feel free to ask. Since last week I own both

jfk said:

It's no comparison between a model s and an i3.
One's a big car the other is a small city car.

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I fully agree that the i3 is a big car where it counts - interior room, but am not sure why you would label the Tesla S a small city car...

When you own neither but can afford either, I see no reason why the two can't be 'compared'. How else can you make an educated choice?

Unfortunately for me, the comparison stopped at the price, as the extra $20-30K made the Model-S unaffordable for me.

Good observations. The two cars are very different, but some people will cross shop them like me.

We (my son and I) drove a Tesla 85 on Christmas eve. It's BIG. Huge actually. Probably more room than many SUVs. Too large for us. Cut 2 feet of the back and some off the front and we're closer.

It feels a little like a spaceship when accelerating. Maybe that's the whole electric single gear thing, but that's what it felt like. Very quiet compared to the C63. Mercedes switchgear, cool.

I haven't had the opportunity to drive an I3 yet, only looked at one at the local dealer. Size seems nice and compact and they nailed the interior. Lots of folks comment negatively on the dash material, but it's not reflective and when the dash extends like that it's a huge deal. I like the openness of both cars.

Back to the comparo....

One thing BMW doesn't have is the supercharger network. That is a game changer and FREE. When they build them all out that is going to be a key difference. Watch them license it for $$$$$$$$$.

A 60kwh Tesla will go 200 mi on a charge, the i3 about 90, Tesla wins here.

You can buy an I3 and a nice gas Honda Accord for the price of the 60 - options are expensive too - I3 wins here.

I3 looks like a Honda element with a squished bulldog nose. Tesla looks sleek and wins hands down here.

BMW is established with a dealer network, Tesla is just getting started (and has only 1 model). BMW maybe wins here. I say maybe because the whole car dealer setup needs an overhaul. Tesla has the right idea with order how you want it, but some folks don't like waiting and want to just walk in and get the car.... It will be interesting to see what happens if supply ever meets demand at Tesla.

Carbon fibre body and recycled materials gets the I3 extra points too. If they would just put a bigger battery in the car it would make this an easy choice. No, Im not interested in the REX.

Hopefully my local dealer will get an I3 so I can test drive one soon...

Alexander99 said:

One thing BMW doesn't have is the supercharger network. That is a game changer and FREE. When they build them all out that is going to be a key difference.

Click to expand...

Maybe a game changer for a handful, but not one for the majority of folks whose trips beyond the vehicle's electric range do not align with the planned 2015 Supercharger build out. Consider the numbers for a trip I take numerous times a year between Peachtree City, GA and a vacation property near Port St Joe, FL. Google Maps shows 313 miles, and 5 hrs 27 minutes using my preferred route. Taking a BMW REx, exhausting the battery range at ~73 miles, continuing 60 miles on the REx genset, then making 3 x 5 minute refueling stops every 60 miles, I can complete the trip using the most direct route in 5 hours, 42 minutes. Taking a Tesla S would mean driving 68 miles out of my way in order to utilize the Superchargers at Macon and Tallahassee, for a 381 mile total trip that would take 7 hours, 36 minutes (Google calculated 6:36 plus two 30 minute recharging stops), nearly two hours longer. Worse, it would require spending an extra $10,000 for the 85kwh model S since the 60kwh version would not be able to complete the 189 miles between Macon and Tallahassee at highway speeds.

Don't know that "free" is that big a deal. I can fully charge (to 90% or so of 60kwh) a Tesla S at home for less than $6.

Alexander99 said:

A 60kwh Tesla will go 200 mi on a charge

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Not at highway speeds. Ask any Tesla driver. Better yet, ask 170 of them (see http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/13310-Lifetime-Average-Wh-mi/page59). Using 90% of the the 60kwh Tesla S full battery capacity (cannot determine if it is possible, but certainly something you would not want to do often), the average range (based on over 1 million miles driven so far) would be about 161 miles.

Alexander99 said:

the i3 about 90.

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No real world numbers on the i3 yet of course, only a SWAG at this point, but based on similar EV performance and fudging BMW's marketing numbers by the same factor used to relate Tesla S marketing numbers to its real world performance, the i3 REx should end up with about 73 miles of average range using 87% of its battery capacity.

Alexander99 said:

Tesla wins here.

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If REx mode can deliver 35.2mpg real world, the 2.5 gallon tank would bring the i3's range up to the same 161 miles as the Tesla S, making range a draw. Before dismissing the REx contribution to range, consider that its compact form and light weight are the reason the BMW i3 REx can be so much more fuel efficient than the Tesla Model S. The entire REx system (engine, generator, accessories, tank, lines, controls, etc) adds only 264 lbs to the weight of the car. Battery weight alone (not including additional weight to beef up the structure) would add about 610 lbs to get it up to 161 miles of range on first guess, but the increased weight would decrease efficiency, forcing another increase in battery weight, structure weight, etc., etc, spiraling upward. The REx is a very elegant solution for the few times the majority of us will need to travel further than 73 miles between charging opportunities.

Everyone approaches this from a different perspective. I was just offering mine as I'm cross shopping the two cars. I also don't want gas in an electric car.... It may be elegant, but part of the appeal for me is never visiting the gas station.

The 60 would likely get me 200 miles as I don't commute over hills, average <40mph and live in CA where we have mild weather and I also rarely have to drive on the highway. As they say, YMMV...

A lot of folks are going to be disappointed if the i3 only has 70 miles of real world range. The European reviews have been stating 80-90+, but we'll see when they start to get out into real consumers' hands. I'd like to see them offer a 30kwh version to get us more electric range.

I also can't help but think there is a better way for you to go the 310+ miles several times a year. This is where BMW's offer of an X5 or something similar for 2 weeks sounds appealing.

Alexander99 said:

A 60kwh Tesla will go 200 mi on a charge, the i3 about 90, Tesla wins here.

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As you say everyone has a slightly different perspective. If you don't need a car to do those longer trips (maybe you have another option) then the range limit of a BEV i3 is not an issue. And that flips the comparison for me because the Tesla does less mpkwh; Tesla=3.3 and i3=4.1 based on 90 miles from a 22 kwh battery. If you are charging from solar or trying to that is important.

Regards

Bill

Each of us has different reasons for the choices we make. The reasons I will be purchasing the i3 have very little to do with wanting to drive an electric car. Electric drive only supports the primary reason - that I want to drive a car that has minimum impact on the environment. There will not be another car that can challenge its low impact throughout the process of processing the raw materials into a production vehicle for quite some time, so we can take that as a given. Forgetting that the i3 REx will have already consumed far less dirty energy and leached less pollutants into the environment than the Tesla Model S when it arrives at my doorstep, let's take a look at how the two will treat the environment over the course of 100,000 driving miles using rough, but reasonable numbers.

Assumptions:
Well to wheel greenhouse gas emissions:
Electricity @ 1.5 lb/kwh greenhouse gas (http://www.cleanerandgreener.org/resources/pollutioncalculator.html for Georgia)
Gasoline @ 24.64 lb/gal greenhouse gas (http://www.ucsusa.org/assets/docume...ctric-car-global-warming-emissions-report.pdf Table 1.3 Notes)
REx gets 30 mpg using gasoline (just a conservative WAG)

Greenhouse Gas (GHG) emissions per mile:
i3 REx using electricity 0.387 lb/mi (1.5 lb/kwh x 0.258 kwh/mi)
i3 REx using gasoline 0.821 lb/mi (24.64 lb/gal / 30 miles/gal)
Tesla S using electricity 0.504 lb/mi (1.5 lb/kwh x 0.336 kwh/mi)

I estimate that roughly 95% of my driving will be within the 73 mile electric range of the i3 REx, but let's stack the deck in Tesla's favor and compare the two assuming only 80% electric usage and 20% gasoline:

i3 REx emissions over 100,000 miles = 47,380 lb (80,000 x 0.387 plus 20,000 x 0.821)
Tesla S emissions over 100,000 miles = 50,400 lb (100,000 x 0.504)

YMMV, but even at 20% usage, the i3 REx will pump thousands of pounds less toxic garbage into the atmosphere over the course of 100,000 miles.

If your objective is to drive electric for the sake of electric, the Tesla S is a great choice. If you consider driving electric to be but a supporting factor in reducing harmful emissions, the BMW i3 REx is a better choice for those who will infrequently exceed its electric range.

Interesting calculation, ultraturtle... I ran the numbers for other grid intensities, and for your 80% and 95% electric usage

I found a link which suggests 180-280kgCO2 per kWh of lithium battery.
The extra ~40kWh of lithium batteries in the Tesla may have emitted ~16000 to 24000lbs CO2
(can anyone estimate CO2 emitted during REx manufacture?)

CA grid @0.49lbsCO2/kWh
Solar PV @0.10lbsCO2/kWh
GA grid @1.5lbsCO2/kWh (close to the "coal powered electric car" :evil: )

Some interesting points.

The 'S is a big car, of this there is no doubt. Same dimensions as a Honda Odyssey Minivan. :shock:

If I were taking a trip with 4 adults and luggage, I'm not sure how the i3 could do it without a roof rack or a trailer. There just isn't the cargo space. I've taken long trips in the 'S with 4 adults, one large dog, on medium dog, 4 large suitcases plus a frunk full of presents.

Other points of comparison I think you missed:

Navigation on the 'S is hands down easier to search for and navigate to a place or address. Beats the heck out of iDrive. Traffic display on the 17" screen is the best I've seen on any car or app for that matter. Beats Waze for clarity...alas not so in routing around the traffic.

iPhone App on the 'S is much nicer and responsive than the BMW App (Well, the ActiveE version anyway...they claim the i3 version will be better)

Streaming audio in the 'S (via Slacker and TuneIn)...I assume something similar is available as an "app" in the BMW.

Tesla Ranger service. Amazing when they make housecalls and update the car in your driveway, or just spirit it away like the car fixing fairies and bring it back all clean and fixed.

Over the air software updates. Fun to see what presents Uncle Elon sent us this week! I asked at the i3 Electronaut event...not gonna happen on the i3.

Electric Memory seats/mirrors/driver settings. (Why oh why did the i3 leave this out?)

For long distance and highway driving the 'S is the car I'd pick.

For commuting and urban (even suburban) around town driving, the i3 is much more nimble and manageable (plus parking assist!)

Good thing the wife owns the 'S, so if I get the i3 I can have the best of both worlds!

--Woof!

i3cam said:

Interesting calculation, ultraturtle... I ran the numbers for other grid intensities, and for your 80% and 95% electric usage

Click to expand...

You bring up a couple of important points. First that the "cleanness" of your EV over its operational life depends on how clean the energy source is. There is an informative, if somewhat controversial paper on the topic at http://www.ucsusa.org/assets/docume...ctric-car-global-warming-emissions-report.pdf. California's grid is roughly 3 times cleaner than Georgia's, so an i3 REx will emit roughly the same greenhouse gas pollution as a Tesla S if operated only 5% on gasoline. The Pacific Northwest's grid is even cleaner, and nationally, it appears that we are finally moving toward cleaner electricity in the future.

The second is the toxic nature of creating and disposing of batteries in the first place, with large battery bank cars having much catching up to do out of the gate.

I think the more important point to pick the right tool for the job. If I needed to exceed 90 miles between refueling opportunities on a daily basis, even if my need for 160 mile range were to be infrequent, I would strongly consider a Tesla Model S, as it fits the mission. My wife's daily commute, however, is only 58 miles, which the i3 will likely be able to complete on electric power up until it's battery bank capacity diminishes to 80% or less of its original capacity. For planned trips greater than that, she will use our gas-hog Plug-In Prius (PiP), which gets a real world 55 mpg over the course of the Tesla S's 161 mile range and will still emit less greenhouse gasses over its life cycle than any other vehicle built to date when operated in Georgia (http://assets.climatecentral.org/pdfs/ClimateFriendlyCarsReport_Final.pdf - this report does not include the i3, which I believe will edge out the PiP when it get revised). The only times she will exceed the electric range will be when something unexpected comes up after leaving the house, which happens only on the rarest of occasions . Hauling around an extra 1,754 pounds of weight in order to accommodate excess battery capacity that is environmentally filthy to manufacture, drags down electric drive efficiency, and would seldom be used would seem irresponsible to me for our situation.

ultraturtle said:

The only times she will exceed the electric range will be when something unexpected comes up after leaving the house, which happens only on the rarest of occasions . Hauling around an extra 1,754 pounds of weight in order to accommodate excess battery capacity that is environmentally filthy to manufacture, drags down electric drive efficiency, and would seldom be used would seem irresponsible to me for our situation.

Click to expand...

Which is exactly the problem with the amplification of range anxiety. Most commuters do not exceed Leaf/i3 BEV range, yet the media and possibly commercial interests play up the fear factor resulting in delay of taking on EV's, the continued use of ICE vehicles including hybrids. Hopefully the early ontake of EV's will spur more to try.

Driving around a 300 mile EV to do short trips is just as silly...

For me it boiled down to this. I would have to have the REX to handle my daily driving. The tesla could easily hande it in EV mode only. I just did not like having to put gas in my electric car. It removes some of the best things I like about EV's....

If the i3 had 150 miles of EV range I would have picked it. It is more comfortable and easier to get in and out of. It is less expensive.

The tesla wins on all other points.

For the record, I ordered a 85kwhr Model S....

This is a concern of mine as well, an EV shouldn't require stops at the gas station. For me it's not an issue though - I drive 100-150 miles per week.

Sranger, now you'll have to edit your signature.....

More eco credentials to throw into the mix:

For US buyers the i3 has to be shipped over from EU whereas the Tesla is built "locally"

Aluminium is far more easy to recycle than CFC and requires far less energy to do so. The Tesla scores with higher % Alloy body content.

i3REX - most EU independant tests have shown worse MPG than suggested by official tests. The Combined cycle has no aerodynamic input. If you drive in the city up to 50 miles a day an i3 BEV is far better option than Tesla or i3 REX.

I would disagree with Prius being most efficient car on planet! Honda Insight mk1 was better (again Ally body and much lighter and more Aerodynamic) and in EU the VW Lupo 3L (magnesium panels) and Ally A2 1.2 TDI (0.25Cd, 850kg, 100mpg (imp) , 81g/km CO2 on mineral diesel and capable of running on SVO, bio diesel or recycled frying oil with an Elsbett conversion).

Interesting article in the economist about advances in diesel that are about to take root in USA:

http://www.economist.com/news/technology-quarterly/21584436-automotive-technology-electric-and-hybrid-cars-are-being-given-run-their

CA and NW USA will have better electricity generation infrastructure so i3 and Tesla and plug ins will be worthwhile there. For long distance wet and cold long journeys the i3 even in REX form isn't ideal but it deserves to carve a niche in US and other markets.

i3cam said:

I found a link which suggests 180-280kgCO2 per kWh of lithium battery.
The extra ~40kWh of lithium batteries in the Tesla may have emitted ~16000 to 24000lbs CO2
(can anyone estimate CO2 emitted during REx manufacture?)

Click to expand...

i3cam brings up yet another very important point in that the environmental cost of manufacturing the car is an important contributor to the comparison, on par with operating it. I did not include it because I did not have a starting point handy until I found the following table on page 25 of this document - http://assets.climatecentral.org/pdfs/ClimateFriendlyCarsReport_Final.pdf



A more relevant comparison should incorporate the life cycle of the car, not just the operational numbers. Running a very rough comparison, again stacking the deck in favor of the Tesla Model S, we can extrapolate a rough comparison using the total greenhouse gas emissions resulting from building a Leaf (26,933 lb), a full size car engine (1,486 lb), and a Leaf battery pack (480 lb/kwh capacity):

BMW i3 REx => 26,933 (Leaf) + 1,486 (full size gas engine) = 28,419 lbs CO2e
Tesla Model S => 26,933 (Leaf) + 36 kwh x 480 lb/kwh = 44,213 lbs CO2e

-The additional 36 kwh of battery capacity creates roughly 17,280 lbs of CO2e based on the Leaf battery pack, which tracks well with i3cam's observation of 16,000 - 24,000 lbs.
- Based on ISO certification (https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/usa/...=9&id=T0155196EN_US&left_menu_item=node__8601), I would assume actual i3 construction is cleaner than the Leaf, and would also assume a 650cc motorcycle engine is cleaner to build than a full size car engine
- I would assume actual Tesla S construction is almost certainly dirtier than Leaf - the S is much larger and uses a tremendous amount of aluminum, one of the most energy intensive metals to produce, as well as a ghastly polluter of soil and water, which is not included in this analysis.

Looking at the larger picture of the manufacturing and operating phases of the life cycle (no disposal numbers, but would assume the i3 would best the Tesla S) a BMW i3 REx would need to operate a far greater percentage on its gasoline engine in order to emit the same greenhouse gasses as a Tesla Model S over the course of 100,000 miles:

Tesla Model S (Georgia) => 44,213 lb (manufacturing) + 50,400 lb (operating) = 94,613 lb
BMW i3 REx (Georgia) => 28,419 lb (manufacturing) + 37,000x0.387 (37% electric operation) + 63,000x0.821 (63% gasoline operation) = 94,461 lb

Tesla Model S (California) => 44,213 lb (manufacturing) + 16,464 lb (operating) = 60,677 lb
BMW i3 REx (California) => 28,419 lb (manufacturing) + 72,000x0.126 (72% electric operation) + 28,000x0.821 (28% gasoline operation) = 60,479 lb

So, strictly from a greenhouse gas emission perspective, the BMW i3 REx is cleaner to manufacture and operate than the Tesla Model S in Georgia (a state with an electric grid slightly dirtier than the national average) for all trips up to and beyond the range of either car, and in a very clean grid state like California, one would need to regularly make trips that exceed 100 miles (a REx depleting its charge in 73 miles, then operating for 28 more miles on gasoline) in order for the Tesla Model S to make environmental sense.

ultraturtle said:

i3cam said:

I found a link which suggests 180-280kgCO2 per kWh of lithium battery.
The extra ~40kWh of lithium batteries in the Tesla may have emitted ~16000 to 24000lbs CO2
(can anyone estimate CO2 emitted during REx manufacture?)

Click to expand...

i3cam brings up yet another very important point in that the environmental cost of manufacturing the car is an important contributor to the comparison, on par with operating it. I did not include it because I did not have a starting point handy until I found the following table on page 25 of this document - http://assets.climatecentral.org/pdfs/ClimateFriendlyCarsReport_Final.pdf

A more relevant comparison should incorporate the life cycle of the car, not just the operational numbers. Running a very rough comparison, again stacking the deck in favor of the Tesla Model S, we can extrapolate a rough comparison using the total greenhouse gas emissions resulting from building a Leaf (26,933 lb), a full size car engine (1,486 lb), and a Leaf battery pack (480 lb/kwh capacity):

BMW i3 REx => 26,933 (Leaf) + 1,486 (full size gas engine) = 28,419 lbs CO2e
Tesla Model S => 26,933 (Leaf) + 36 kwh x 480 lb/kwh = 44,213 lbs CO2e

-The additional 36 kwh of battery capacity creates roughly 17,280 lbs of CO2e based on the Leaf battery pack, which tracks well with i3cam's observation of 16,000 - 24,000 lbs.
- Based on ISO certification (https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/usa/...=9&id=T0155196EN_US&left_menu_item=node__8601), I would assume actual i3 construction is cleaner than the Leaf, and would also assume a 650cc motorcycle engine is cleaner to build than a full size car engine
- I would assume actual Tesla S construction is almost certainly dirtier than Leaf - the S is much larger and uses a tremendous amount of aluminum, one of the most energy intensive metals to produce, as well as a ghastly polluter of soil and water, which is not included in this analysis.

Looking at the larger picture of the manufacturing and operating phases of the life cycle (no disposal numbers, but would assume the i3 would best the Tesla S) a BMW i3 REx would need to operate a far greater percentage on its gasoline engine in order to emit the same greenhouse gasses as a Tesla Model S over the course of 100,000 miles:

Tesla Model S (Georgia) => 44,213 lb (manufacturing) + 50,400 lb (operating) = 94,613 lb
BMW i3 REx (Georgia) => 28,419 lb (manufacturing) + 37,000x0.387 (37% electric operation) + 63,000x0.821 (63% gasoline operation) = 94,461 lb

Tesla Model S (California) => 44,213 lb (manufacturing) + 16,464 lb (operating) = 60,677 lb
BMW i3 REx (California) => 28,419 lb (manufacturing) + 72,000x0.126 (72% electric operation) + 28,000x0.821 (28% gasoline operation) = 60,479 lb

So, strictly from a greenhouse gas emission perspective, the BMW i3 REx is cleaner to manufacture and operate than the Tesla Model S in Georgia (a state with an electric grid slightly dirtier than the national average) for all trips up to and beyond the range of either car, and in a very clean grid state like California, one would need to regularly make trips that exceed 100 miles (a REx depleting its charge in 73 miles, then operating for 28 more miles on gasoline) in order for the Tesla Model S to make environmental sense.

Click to expand...

It would make sense that a 2700lb car would have a lighter foot print than a 4700lb car with similar drive lines. I also think you are being a little too friendly with the Model S in the Georgia example. 63% gas operation seems a little too high % of operation. I drive a lot in and around Atlanta(25,000 miles/year), and from my past records the i3 REx would be only about 25% on gas assuming a solid 70 mile EV range...

BMW i3 REx => 26,933 (Leaf) + 1,486 (full size gas engine) = 28,419 lbs CO2e
Tesla Model S => 26,933 (Leaf) + 36 kwh x 480 lb/kwh = 44,213 lbs CO2e

Click to expand...

The i3 is made from carbon composite with alu chassis, not steel like the leaf. No idea what that does to the embedded CO2 but doubtful it is directly comparable with a heavier steel bodied EV.

And on the same score, the Tesla is all alu and weighs a lot more than the Leaf. It has to have a significantly higher embedded CO2 than a lighter steel bodied EV. Aluminium being basically solidified energy!

I33t said:

BMW i3 REx => 26,933 (Leaf) + 1,486 (full size gas engine) = 28,419 lbs CO2e
Tesla Model S => 26,933 (Leaf) + 36 kwh x 480 lb/kwh = 44,213 lbs CO2e

Click to expand...

The i3 is made from carbon composite with alu chassis, not steel like the leaf. No idea what that does to the embedded CO2 but doubtful it is directly comparable with a heavier steel bodied EV.

And on the same score, the Tesla is all alu and weighs a lot more than the Leaf. It has to have a significantly higher embedded CO2 than a lighter steel bodied EV. Aluminium being basically solidified energy!

Click to expand...

Wow, my head is spinning from all the numbers you guys are throwing around here. Thanks to all for all of the smart analysis.

I just want to throw one dose-of-reality number into the mix: I live in CA (in Tiburon, in Marin County) and my cost of electricity is WAY more expensive than what you guys say it is in Georgia. Currently (no pun intended) I am paying 43.316¢ per marginal kWh. Our grid may be three times cleaner than yours, but it seems to be more than three times as expensive as yours.

My guess is that this makes it way harder for anyone in CA to justify the initial purchase cost premium of either the Tesla or the i3 (vs comparable ICE powered vehicles) on the basis of them costing less per mile to "fuel" than a comparable ICE powered car. I'll defer to you math whizzes to do an analysis of this please.

In any event, I personally am willing to pay the premium as the price of my own personal small contribution to stopping global warming. I'm just not sure how much of the rest of America is willing to join me on this.

http://www.mybmwi3.com/forum/posting.php?mode=quote&f=3&p=2705#